LondonLax Posted September 7, 2020 Share Posted September 7, 2020 53 minutes ago, Davkaus said: I never thought I'd see the day I agree with Trump on something https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-evangelicals-condescending-remarks-michael-cohen-2020-9?r=US&IR=T It surprises me, because he's well known to be a very religious man himself. Any excuse to watch this video. The frustrating thing is that it is so easy to dismiss Cohan as not a credible witness, as Trump himself has already done. If Trumps supporters are going to fall away I think it’s going to take a more credible witness, or better yet a tape. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheAuthority Posted September 7, 2020 VT Supporter Share Posted September 7, 2020 6 minutes ago, LondonLax said: I’m guessing they are two guys taking the piss out of Trump supporters? No, there are a lot of people here who really are that stupid Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LondonLax Posted September 7, 2020 Share Posted September 7, 2020 (edited) 12 minutes ago, TheAuthority said: No, there are a lot of people here who really are that stupid Actually it’s just one guy isn’t it? I’m sticking with troll for now. Edited September 7, 2020 by LondonLax Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanAVFC Posted September 7, 2020 Share Posted September 7, 2020 1 hour ago, LondonLax said: The frustrating thing is that it is so easy to dismiss Cohan as not a credible witness, as Trump himself has already done. If Trumps supporters are going to fall away I think it’s going to take a more credible witness, or better yet a tape. There was a tape of him bragging about sexual assault. They didn't care. He mocked a gold star family. They didn't care. He mocked a disabled man on camera. They didn't care. Whatever, he does, tapes or from a witness. They wont care. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LondonLax Posted September 7, 2020 Share Posted September 7, 2020 (edited) 6 minutes ago, StefanAVFC said: There was a tape of him bragging about sexual assault. They didn't care. He mocked a gold star family. They didn't care. He mocked a disabled man on camera. They didn't care. Whatever, he does, tapes or from a witness. They wont care. Yes true but in those examples he is attacking specific people (and they are typically political opponents, so his supporters cheer him on). These recent accusations claim that he is attacking his two core constituents, military families and religious fundamentalists. If there was ever a tape released with evidence of this then it would be received differently. Edited September 7, 2020 by LondonLax Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanAVFC Posted September 7, 2020 Share Posted September 7, 2020 (edited) 10 minutes ago, LondonLax said: Yes true but in those examples he is attacking specific people (and they are typically political opponents, so his supporters cheer him on). These recent accusations claim that he is attacking his two core constituents, military families and religious fundamentalists. If there was ever a tape released with evidence of this then it would be received differently. I think that's incredibly naive. Edited September 7, 2020 by StefanAVFC 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LondonLax Posted September 7, 2020 Share Posted September 7, 2020 2 minutes ago, StefanAVFC said: I think that's incredibly naive. If you have a look online at what his supporters say. They deny he said these things, it is all a conspiracy to discredit him, run by the fake news media or a disgruntled ex employee with a criminal record for being a con artist. It absolutely would hurt his standing with many of these supporters if some actual proof was to come out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted September 7, 2020 Share Posted September 7, 2020 52 minutes ago, LondonLax said: If you have a look online at what his supporters say. They deny he said these things, it is all a conspiracy to discredit him, run by the fake news media or a disgruntled ex employee with a criminal record for being a con artist. It absolutely would hurt his standing with many of these supporters if some actual proof was to come out. Think it depends what you mean by 'hurt his standing'. They will still go out and vote, and if they do it while liking him slightly less they will still do it for the 6th and 7th justices on the Supreme Court. I do agree that if such a tape came out, it would make the rejecting-him-because-he-was-never-a-real-conservative-anyway phase faster after an election defeat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villakram Posted September 7, 2020 Share Posted September 7, 2020 Glenn Greenwald providing some context for those who sneer at people who legitimately question the timing and context of this "scoop". https://theintercept.com/2020/09/05/journalisms-new-propaganda-tool-using-confirmed-to-mean-its-opposite/ "But what is clear is that the “confirmation” which both MSNBC and CBS claimed it had obtained for the story was anything but: All that happened was that the same sources which anonymously whispered these unverified, false claims to CNN then went and repeated the same unverified, false claims to other outlets, which then claimed that they “independently confirmed” the story even though they had done nothing of the sort." ... "Other media outlets — including Associated Press and Fox News — now claim that they did exactly that: “confirmed” the Atlantic story. But if one looks at what they actually did, at what this “confirmation” consists of, it is the opposite of what that word would mean, or should mean, in any minimally responsible sense. AP, for instance, merely claims that “a senior Defense Department official with firsthand knowledge of events and a senior U.S. Marine Corps officer who was told about Trump’s comments confirmed some of the remarks to The Associated Press,” while Fox merely said “a former senior Trump administration official who was in France traveling with the president in November 2018 did confirm other details surrounding that trip.”" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted September 8, 2020 Share Posted September 8, 2020 A big problem in both American and British political reporting is that journalists have in recent decades become far too willing to allow people to say things that are politically consequential, but have little real consequence, off the record. There is no need for whoever this 'source' is to say these things off the record. If they are a 'former . . . administration official' then they don't have a job they could lose. Journalists need to stop enabling this behaviour. Just say you won't print it unless they put their name to the allegation. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LondonLax Posted September 8, 2020 Share Posted September 8, 2020 Well yes it’s a problem. I made the point a page back that other news outlets ‘confirming’ the story appears to just be the same unnamed sources whispering the same gossip to different news outlets. It is frustrating because it undermines the reporting and gives ammunition to Trump’s ‘fAkE NEwS!!!’ nutters. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheAuthority Posted September 8, 2020 VT Supporter Share Posted September 8, 2020 Greenwald - The bitter man who thought the Snowden story would propel him to the top of the journalist tree but instead finds himself living in Brazil slinging mud at wherever it will stick. He's a zealot who hates what he calls the center of American Politics but has no idea what he stands for himself. I find it hilarious that people who read his twitter feed think they are some how clued into a voice that no one else understands. At this point Greenwald is as much of a personality cult asTrump. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted September 8, 2020 Moderator Share Posted September 8, 2020 7 hours ago, HanoiVillan said: A big problem in both American and British political reporting is that journalists have in recent decades become far too willing to allow people to say things that are politically consequential, but have little real consequence, off the record. There is no need for whoever this 'source' is to say these things off the record. If they are a 'former . . . administration official' then they don't have a job they could lose. Journalists need to stop enabling this behaviour. Just say you won't print it unless they put their name to the allegation. On the American side of this, I'm not sure I'd want to be publicly named right now. Setting yourself up for the rabid right nutters isn't exactly something that should be your reward for doing the right thing. Hell even in the UK . if it were me, I'd feel slightly unsafe. I'm not saying you're wrong but there must be a big fear factor there 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Straggler Posted September 8, 2020 Share Posted September 8, 2020 12 hours ago, LondonLax said: If you have a look online at what his supporters say. They deny he said these things, it is all a conspiracy to discredit him, run by the fake news media or a disgruntled ex employee with a criminal record for being a con artist. It absolutely would hurt his standing with many of these supporters if some actual proof was to come out. Proof doesn't matter to a cult. They will find a way to make it fake news, or he was joking, or when he said Christians he meant to say Muslims, or he was really talking about liberals in the military and they are losers. His supporters are already tied up in mental loops justifying way worse things than a couple of insults, just chuck this on the pile. He is already 10 points behind in the polls, but I don't think he can do anything to drop much further back. He could sell Trump brand Constitution toilet roll with every other sheet being an American flag and the MAGA crowd will buy it. He can pour horror upon horror and hold his 35%. The only thing he could do to lose votes I think would be to give a heart felt apology for all the racism and promise to make America a welcoming place for non white people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted September 8, 2020 Moderator Share Posted September 8, 2020 8 hours ago, HanoiVillan said: Just say you won't print it unless they put their name to the allegation. I agree with the wider comment you made, but not this bit. Sometimes, there are very good reasons to protect sources. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted September 8, 2020 Share Posted September 8, 2020 1 hour ago, bickster said: On the American side of this, I'm not sure I'd want to be publicly named right now. Setting yourself up for the rabid right nutters isn't exactly something that should be your reward for doing the right thing. Hell even in the UK . if it were me, I'd feel slightly unsafe. I'm not saying you're wrong but there must be a big fear factor there You make a fair point. I'm certainly not trying to say that whistleblowing is easy or comes without negative consequences - my favourite film is 'The Insider' - but I think that's why I'm trying to drive this distinction between stories that might have political consequence in terms of changing people's perceptions, versus stories about policy or decision-making that have real, direct consequences for the electorate. I'm much more sympathetic to stories that leak which are revealing the latter. This may be an issue in which there are only different trade-offs. The current situation is not without negative consequences either; specifically, there is a widespread lack of trust in mainstream media outlets which is driving far right-wing conspiracy theories, and this type of story fits extremely well into the 'the deep state is trying to undermine him' narrative that supports those stories. Journalists are not well-liked or trusted these days, and while the industry has enjoyed a Trump mini-boom, most traditional media outlets are in long-term decline. If they want to arrest that, they will need to do something different, and work in a way that gets some of that trust back. I like to believe, maybe incorrectly, that better standards on which stories to run and who to give anonymity to would help with that. 21 minutes ago, blandy said: I agree with the wider comment you made, but not this bit. Sometimes, there are very good reasons to protect sources. I agree, I just don't think this story is of enough importance to allow anonymous sourcing. It's just court gossip at the end of the day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted September 8, 2020 Moderator Share Posted September 8, 2020 3 minutes ago, HanoiVillan said: I just don't think this story is of enough importance to allow anonymous sourcing. Fair enough. I think it is huge. I mean if it's true, then it highlights a complete lack of respect, lack of empathy, lack of understanding of the roles and lives of military personnel. For the POTUS to have such a lack of understanding of (like it or not) a key part of the US's influence and defence and so on is a disqualifier from office. SO aside from showing Trump (yet again) to be a blowhard idiot, and any effect on opinion polls or whatever, it's hugely important, in my eyes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted September 8, 2020 Share Posted September 8, 2020 16 minutes ago, blandy said: Fair enough. I think it is huge. I mean if it's true, then it highlights a complete lack of respect, lack of empathy, lack of understanding of the roles and lives of military personnel. For the POTUS to have such a lack of understanding of (like it or not) a key part of the US's influence and defence and so on is a disqualifier from office. SO aside from showing Trump (yet again) to be a blowhard idiot, and any effect on opinion polls or whatever, it's hugely important, in my eyes. We aren't going to agree on this, I don't think. The story only 'highlights' the things you say if it is true, and we have no way of judging the likely veracity of it without knowing who said it. What the story actually highlights is that there is someone who once worked in the administration who realises that this is a potentially politically-damaging thing to accuse a president of. I'm being consistent in this - I'm probably not going to be open to taking these sort of off-the-record gossip stories seriously when they are about a Biden presidency, so I'm not going to take them seriously now either. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted September 8, 2020 Moderator Share Posted September 8, 2020 8 minutes ago, HanoiVillan said: The story only 'highlights' the things you say if it is true I know and I agree - and I said "if it's true". It's absolutely fine and good to have a different view on the importance from each other. We might be talking at slightly cross purposes, as I think we basically agree (other than on the importance of this story). If what Trump is claimed to have said is true, then (for me) that is extremely important for the reasons I mentioned. For you not so much. Cool. The story around the story is of little or no importance - the media kerfuffle about the "reaction" to the allegations is largely unimportant fluff. In essence, multiple media outlets, including Pro-Trump Fox, have been told the allegations are true by multiple un-named sources. We also know Trump has publicly said some of what is anonymously alleged - about John McCain it's on film and audio of him saying the same stuff. I guess with Trump, as many have already said - he can basically do whatever or say whatever and get away with it in the eyes of his base. Our politics is going the same way, fast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Straggler Posted September 9, 2020 Share Posted September 9, 2020 Trump has been nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize. Must be running out of previously respected institutions to wreck in his own country. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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