bickster Posted September 27, 2019 Moderator Share Posted September 27, 2019 19 minutes ago, HanoiVillan said: I mean, we're not defining terms here. It remains comparatively unlikely that this leads to a vote in the Senate that results in impeachment. That has actually never happened in US history, and it remains more likely than not that it won't happen now. However, there are a lot of consequences that could happen short of that, including the destruction of Biden in the primary, or the defeat of a wounded Trump in the general. There is a flip side to the Trump aspect though, he could actually gain support from it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted September 27, 2019 Share Posted September 27, 2019 1 hour ago, bickster said: There is a flip side to the Trump aspect though, he could actually gain support from it Anything is possible. But early polling suggests the public view this more seriously than they did any of the Russia stuff. Of course a Trump PR win *could* emerge, but it's not one of the more likely outcomes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KentVillan Posted September 27, 2019 Share Posted September 27, 2019 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam-AVFC Posted September 28, 2019 Share Posted September 28, 2019 On 27/09/2019 at 09:33, tonyh29 said: yeah bit of a brain freeze moment , i meant they didn't find him "guilty" or whatever you call the outcome of an impeachment even though he was bang to rights , so it's unlikely they'd get a conviction on Trump You say Clinton was bang to rights and they’re unlikely to get anything on Trump, but considering the two charges for Clinton were lying under oath and obstruction of justice I’m not sure why you think this. Trump WILL lie under oath if he ever testifies and actually answers questions and they could already pursue the obstruction route if they wanted to. Ultimately I think it will be academic as I’m expecting much worse shit than either of these to come out soon enough. I’m sure he’ll have plenty of support anyway as the sort of people with enough of a moral deficit to vote for this man won’t give a shit. I find it amazing that some people are only now saying they can no longer support him. Newsflash - if sexual violence against his ex, various racial discrimination cases lost, Trump uni, Central Park 5, births risk, numerous rape allegations (and language by Trump suggesting he has that mindset) etc didn’t stop you voting for him then distancing yourself now does not make you a good person! Went a bit off tangent there... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted September 28, 2019 Share Posted September 28, 2019 It’s not just moral deficit that causes people to vote for Trump. If you live somewhere that relied on an industry that has closed down and not been replaced, then you have some pretty urgent needs from your government. You can vote for the party that will look at changing how medication and health are dealt with. That will look at naturalising immigrants and having a more constructive relationship with Venezuela and trying to encourage the use of hybrid cars. Or you can vote for the party that will reopen the local industry and save your home and get your kid their first job. It can be absolutely that simple for people on the very edge that aren’t monitoring the rolling news for the next scandal that never quite lands. It’s that Venn diagram again, not all Trump voters are bad people / all bad people vote Trump. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam-AVFC Posted September 28, 2019 Share Posted September 28, 2019 24 minutes ago, chrisp65 said: It’s not just moral deficit that causes people to vote for Trump. I know most wouldn’t have voted for him because of that, but I don’t think I’d be able to excuse voting for someone like that regardless of how well their policies align with my beliefs/needs. It also relies on people actually taking him at his word and many of those examples scream to me of a man who can’t be trusted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted September 28, 2019 Share Posted September 28, 2019 7 minutes ago, Sam-AVFC said: I know most wouldn’t have voted for him because of that, but I don’t think I’d be able to excuse voting for someone like that regardless of how well their policies align with my beliefs/needs. It also relies on people actually taking him at his word and many of those examples scream to me of a man who can’t be trusted. Well, I admire your resolve. I guess the real test is when you have no job, they’ve taken your car, the mortgage can’t be paid and the kids need medicine and there’s no NHS and no benefits. Voting for the party that thinks its natural that jobs drift east, against the party that says they will reopen the logging plant, that’s some strong moral compass. I’m not disagreeing, it’s just never as black n white as 50 second news bites can make it sound. I think the guy is an absolute horror, but there’s different context, there isn’t the safety net for many over there that we have here. Albeit, our safety net has wider and wider holes in it. You have to wonder, if life was so fair and equitable under the Democrat Presidency, how the hell did they lose to such a turd of a man? It really wasn’t because half the country hates women. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam-AVFC Posted September 28, 2019 Share Posted September 28, 2019 21 minutes ago, chrisp65 said: Well, I admire your resolve. I guess the real test is when you have no job, they’ve taken your car, the mortgage can’t be paid and the kids need medicine and there’s no NHS and no benefits. Voting for the party that thinks its natural that jobs drift east, against the party that says they will reopen the logging plant, that’s some strong moral compass. I’m not disagreeing, it’s just never as black n white as 50 second news bites can make it sound. I think the guy is an absolute horror, but there’s different context, there isn’t the safety net for many over there that we have here. Albeit, our safety net has wider and wider holes in it. You have to wonder, if life was so fair and equitable under the Democrat Presidency, how the hell did they lose to such a turd of a man? It really wasn’t because half the country hates women. The first couple of paragraphs are why I said think because you’re quite right that it’s easy to take a moral stand from a theoretical point of view but you don’t know unless you are actually in that situation. I completely accept that assumption comes from a place of privilege. But it still relies on believing a man like Trump would prioritise the ‘man on the street’ in contrast to pretty much everything he’s done. There are definitely issues in developed countries worldwide with people feeling disenfranchised and the rise of opportunistic populism. As you allude to, the solution is for the political class to engage with these people rather than deride their voting decisions. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bannedfromHandV Posted September 28, 2019 Share Posted September 28, 2019 39 minutes ago, chrisp65 said: Well, I admire your resolve. I guess the real test is when you have no job, they’ve taken your car, the mortgage can’t be paid and the kids need medicine and there’s no NHS and no benefits. Voting for the party that thinks its natural that jobs drift east, against the party that says they will reopen the logging plant, that’s some strong moral compass. I’m not disagreeing, it’s just never as black n white as 50 second news bites can make it sound. I think the guy is an absolute horror, but there’s different context, there isn’t the safety net for many over there that we have here. Albeit, our safety net has wider and wider holes in it. You have to wonder, if life was so fair and equitable under the Democrat Presidency, how the hell did they lose to such a turd of a man? It really wasn’t because half the country hates women. Look at what they were left with to choose from though, Hilary or Trump. The real tragedy is that in a nation of 300+ million people, you have those two scumbags to pick between - and that’s what’s wrong with world politics (not just US - i mean if we had a GE tomorrow look at what we have to choose from) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted September 28, 2019 Moderator Share Posted September 28, 2019 1 hour ago, chrisp65 said: You have to wonder, if life was so fair and equitable under the Democrat Presidency, how the hell did they lose to such a turd of a man? It really wasn’t because half the country hates women Not entirely but you have to remember that the Democrats actually got 3million more votes (iirc). Trump didn't win the popular vote. Elections in the US are also biased heavily towards the GOP with gerrymandered districts and disproportionate votes for smaller (more GOP friendly rural) states. then there's the Russian interference and the ballot stuffing and the postal vote scandals and the disenfranchisement of predominantly black areas (making them vote effing miles away in very oddly shaped districts) All that above isn't the only reason your reasons are just as valid plus many others. I think my point is that the US elections are not a fair fight from the off 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted September 28, 2019 Share Posted September 28, 2019 They both new the rules on how you get elected. It wasn’t a total votes referendum, same way the UK works. Trump was out canvassing until the last, she declined to shore up the vote in the last 12 hours and lost. But that’s not the point I was after, I was referencing the ‘not all Brexit voters are racists. All racists are Brexit voters’ angle. Good people voted for Trump and it paid off for some of them, that can’t be disputed. Maybe now they have the job that saved the house, maybe they can vote on higher moral concerns, like the fact he’s horrible. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bannedfromHandV Posted September 28, 2019 Share Posted September 28, 2019 2 minutes ago, chrisp65 said: They both new the rules on how you get elected. It wasn’t a total votes referendum, same way the UK works. Trump was out canvassing until the last, she declined to shore up the vote in the last 12 hours and lost. But that’s not the point I was after, I was referencing the ‘not all Brexit voters are racists. All racists are Brexit voters’ angle. Good people voted for Trump and it paid off for some of them, that can’t be disputed. Maybe now they have the job that saved the house, maybe they can vote on higher moral concerns, like the fact he’s horrible. At some point, perhaps in the not too distant future we as individuals will have to make some really hard choices and the ‘I’ll make sure me and mine are okay’ approach will have to be null and void. Theres no doubting it, the world is in a bad state from almost all angles and the only way to improve it will be for people to relinquish their self-concerns, so voting for someone like Trump - just because he might gift you a job - should pale in significance versus the environmental, political and social damage he’s doing and done. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheAuthority Posted September 28, 2019 VT Supporter Share Posted September 28, 2019 2 minutes ago, bannedfromHandV said: Theres no doubting it, the world is in a bad state from almost all angles and the only way to improve it will be for people to relinquish their self-concerns, so voting for someone like Trump - just because he might gift you a job - should pale in significance versus the environmental, political and social damage he’s doing and done. Sadly people don't vote for the 'greater good' they vote for selfish reasons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted September 28, 2019 Share Posted September 28, 2019 Just now, bannedfromHandV said: At some point, perhaps in the not too distant future we as individuals will have to make some really hard choices and the ‘I’ll make sure me and mine are okay’ approach will have to be null and void. Theres no doubting it, the world is in a bad state from almost all angles and the only way to improve it will be for people to relinquish their self-concerns, so voting for someone like Trump - just because he might gift you a job - should pale in significance versus the environmental, political and social damage he’s doing and done. Yep, that’s exactly what people are going to do, they’re going to think that whilst they are about to be homeless and deny their own kids the meds they need, the needs of unknown islanders in unknown lands must come first. I myself would gladly sacrifice my children for the children of others. There are hard choices, and there are nonsensical asks. I totally get what you’re saying. I’m just suggesting it will be a really really hard sell to persuade the people on the bottom in one country to prioritise other people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheAuthority Posted September 28, 2019 VT Supporter Share Posted September 28, 2019 2 hours ago, chrisp65 said: You have to wonder, if life was so fair and equitable under the Democrat Presidency, how the hell did they lose to such a turd of a man? It really wasn’t because half the country hates women. I believe that there is a significant percentage of the US population that believes that they have the right to instruct women what they can and can't do with their bodies. So it's not quite as black and white to say that 50% of the US "hate" women but large percentage don't respect them enough to allow them to make their own decisions. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bannedfromHandV Posted September 28, 2019 Share Posted September 28, 2019 2 minutes ago, chrisp65 said: Yep, that’s exactly what people are going to do, they’re going to think that whilst they are about to be homeless and deny their own kids the meds they need, the needs of unknown islanders in unknown lands must come first. I myself would gladly sacrifice my children for the children of others. There are hard choices, and there are nonsensical asks. I totally get what you’re saying. I’m just suggesting it will be a really really hard sell to persuade the people on the bottom in one country to prioritise other people. Mate, I’m talking about survival of the species - not a community or even a country. Im thinking ‘Interstellar’ type shit - if we don’t change our ways as a species we are royally F’d. The only other solution would be a Thanos type approach, which scarily enough, I’m coming round to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted September 28, 2019 Share Posted September 28, 2019 Just now, TheAuthority said: I believe that there is a significant percentage of the US population that believes that they have the right to instruct women what they can and can't do with their bodies. So it's not quite as black and white to say that 50% of the US "hate" women but large percentage don't respect them enough to allow them to make their own decisions. Yes, I agree with that. I’ve said it up page, we just need to remember the Venn diagram. All women haters vote Trump, not all Trump voters hate women. Some people, enough to tip the balance, voted Trump for honourable reasons. If Clinton had lovely ambitions for the future treatment of women, and Trump gets you the job that gets food and medicine for your daughter, who you gonna vote for? It’s actually a really easy fix for the Democrats. Grab the jobs promise from him. Then he’s just the pig with a fake tan. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted September 28, 2019 Share Posted September 28, 2019 (edited) 1 minute ago, bannedfromHandV said: Mate, I’m talking about survival of the species - not a community or even a country. Im thinking ‘Interstellar’ type shit - if we don’t change our ways as a species we are royally F’d. The only other solution would be a Thanos type approach, which scarily enough, I’m coming round to. So you’re telling me, you would sacrifice your kids for the future of the planet? That’s genuinely commendable, but that’s a biblical test I personally would fail. Edited September 28, 2019 by chrisp65 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bannedfromHandV Posted September 28, 2019 Share Posted September 28, 2019 (edited) 1 minute ago, chrisp65 said: So you’re telling me, you would sacrifice your kids for the future of the planet? That’s a biblical test I personally would fail. I don’t have kids so I don’t have that dilemma. Would I sacrifice myself if it were on the basis of irrefutable proof that it would sustain the species - yes, I honestly think I would. Edit - I never was in the forces, but I always considered myself someone that would jump on a grenade if it would save my squad - it’s the same conversation. Edited September 28, 2019 by bannedfromHandV Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xela Posted September 28, 2019 Share Posted September 28, 2019 11 hours ago, chrisp65 said: It’s not just moral deficit that causes people to vote for Trump. If you live somewhere that relied on an industry that has closed down and not been replaced, then you have some pretty urgent needs from your government. You can vote for the party that will look at changing how medication and health are dealt with. That will look at naturalising immigrants and having a more constructive relationship with Venezuela and trying to encourage the use of hybrid cars. Or you can vote for the party that will reopen the local industry and save your home and get your kid their first job. It can be absolutely that simple for people on the very edge that aren’t monitoring the rolling news for the next scandal that never quite lands. It’s that Venn diagram again, not all Trump voters are bad people / all bad people vote Trump. From the White House website listing some of Trump's achievements so far. If you're Hank Patriot from Smallsville, USA, then these look very good indeed. https://www.whitehouse.gov/trump-administration-accomplishments/ Quote Almost 4 million jobs created since election. More Americans are now employed than ever recorded before in our history. We have created more than 400,000 manufacturing jobs since my election. Manufacturing jobs growing at the fastest rate in more than THREE DECADES. Economic growth last quarter hit 4.2 percent. New unemployment claims recently hit a 49-year low. Median household income has hit highest level ever recorded. African-American unemployment has recently achieved the lowest rate ever recorded. Hispanic-American unemployment is at the lowest rate ever recorded. Asian-American unemployment recently achieved the lowest rate ever recorded. Women’s unemployment recently reached the lowest rate in 65 years. Youth unemployment has recently hit the lowest rate in nearly half a century. Lowest unemployment rate ever recorded for Americans without a high school diploma. Under my Administration, veterans’ unemployment recently reached its lowest rate in nearly 20 years. Also, he hasn't bombed anyone into submission yet unlike previous US administrations. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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