U.S. Politics

[snowychap]

8 minutes ago, blandy said:

Is it. That’s embarrassing, a pedant caught out by a spelling error   what a plum.

Tbh, I often have to check it because I tend to get it wrong, too.

[bickster]

Just now, terrytini said:

Would that be the Community Charge ?

That was its fluffy name yes

[Vive_La_Villa]

1 hour ago, snowychap said:

Is your problem with criticisms of Trump or with the protesting or that there may not have been similar protests against Xi or the Indian PM?

I was too drunk to remember what my problem was. It was probably the latter. 

I’d say there’s leaders out there that are responsible for genuine atrocities and human rights abuses but I wonder how many of those protesting yesterday are upset that they are visiting the country. Or even know for that matter.

Maybe they all are and it just doesn’t get any media attention.  Plus everyone has a right to protest about whatever they want. What’s it to me?

In fact I have no problem. Just a bad headache.

[MickeyC_UTV]

12 hours ago, ml1dch said:

Poor Tony, he was doing his best.

Er, sorry, wrong robinson  thanks mate

[Xann]

3 hours ago, VILLAMARV said:

Is kinda how we got here

A lot is changing quickly.

Even on here in the Global Warming thread, the naysayers have mostly become silent since the thread was started.

VLV doesn't perceive a relevant distinction between the dark grey and pitch black of the two most recent US administrations. 

Who to proffer as a contrasting source?

VLV, you noticed the recent fuss about plastic bottles and straws? Much of the action this year has been because of *this arriving.

Most of us in the UK grew up with David Attenborough. From the late 70s he's presented a string of benchmark setting series about the natural world.

Production values are the best, it's exported everywhere. Demand for Blue Planet II gave China's servers a brainfart. 

The series are primarily intended to educate and awe. It's not all preachy, but you're shown how it's changing and it's past frightening now.

He's 92 and been everywhere, often a number of times. He's seen the World change over 70 years, over it, under it, in the air and underwater.

He generally shuns politics, doesn't own a chain of restaurants and really doesn't enjoy the limelight.

 

There's a number of political viewpoints on VT - If anyone thinks there's a better way of being shown what's happened, save actually being there? Please suggest an alternative.

If not? There you go, @Vive_La_Villa. There's loads of clips on Youtube. The lyre bird is so good you'll think it's a spoof.

 

I'm not sure I want to see 'Life In The Freezer' again, considering what's happened at the Poles since it was made

 

* At a fortuitous time for an ailing government.

 

 

 

[maqroll]

14 hours ago, VILLAMARV said:

Well, at least we know Maqroll will be first in line for the robot lady doll thingamys

I've got a one way ticket to Boner Town

[maqroll]

On 13/07/2018 at 19:32, Vive_La_Villa said:

What’s all that got to do with Trump? Previous US governments are far more guilty of those crimes then the current administration yet I never saw such protests againsts Obama for example. I bet warmonger Hilary Clinton would have been welcomed with open arms too. 

These people aren’t protesting against US policies. That would actually be justified in many ways. They are protesting because of their hatred for one man. That’s what is making a whole mockery of protests in general. It’s lost all credibility now. Scumbags.

Whether people choose to admit it or not, Britain and the USA have very strong linguistic and cultural bonds, and what happens one one side of the Atlantic often has pertinence on the other side. British Muslims are facing extreme prejudice from entering the USA, and some American Muslims might be feeling restricted from re-entering the country...which would be just cause in and of itself to protest the architect of the policy of banning a religion.. In an era in which Ireland (gasp) has legalized abortion, the United States is a judicial appointment away from outlawing the practice. Worth protesting. His shockingly inhumane treatment of Central American and Mexican migrants is worth protesting. His diabolical trashing of historic alliances is worth protesting. His collusion with Moscow to steal the US election is worth protesting. His insults, lies, threats against the press, his disinformation, his stoking of racial tension, his ignorance and his misogyny are all worth protesting and I'm really glad to see so many Brits out in the streets doing just that.

Edited July 15, 2018 by maqroll

[WhatAboutTheFinish]

7 hours ago, maqroll said:

Whether people choose to admit it or not, Britain and the USA have very strong linguistic and cultural bonds, and what happens one one side of the Atlantic often has pertinence on the other side. British Muslims are facing extreme prejudice from entering the USA, and some American Muslims might be feeling restricted from re-entering the country...which would be just cause in and of itself to protest the architect of the policy of banning a religion.. In an era in which Ireland (gasp) has legalized abortion, the United States is a judicial appointment away from outlawing the practice. Worth protesting. His shockingly inhumane treatment of Central American and Mexican migrants is worth protesting. His diabolical trashing of historic alliances is worth protesting. His collusion with Moscow to steal the US election is worth protesting. His insults, lies, threats against the press, his disinformation, his stoking of racial tension, his ignorance and his misogyny are all worth protesting and I'm really glad to see so many Brits out in the streets doing just that.

If only the Americans could create some sort of environment where these topics could be discussed freely and then devise some sort of system where every person is given the chance to have an equal say in order to reach a consensus on the direction they want the country as a whole to take. Might be a good idea, as a safeguard, to give everybody the opportunity to change that direction,should they so wish, after a set period of time. Every four years might be good.

[ml1dch]

44 minutes ago, WhatAboutTheFinish said:

If only the Americans could create some sort of environment where these topics could be discussed freely and then devise some sort of system where every person is given the chance to have an equal say in order to reach a consensus on the direction they want the country as a whole to take. Might be a good idea, as a safeguard, to give everybody the opportunity to change that direction,should they so wish, after a set period of time. Every four years might be good.

Sounds good. And for the four years in between, everyone just shuts up?

[Keyblade]

1 hour ago, WhatAboutTheFinish said:

If only the Americans could create some sort of environment where these topics could be discussed freely and then devise some sort of system where every person is given the chance to have an equal say in order to reach a consensus on the direction they want the country as a whole to take. Might be a good idea, as a safeguard, to give everybody the opportunity to change that direction,should they so wish, after a set period of time. Every four years might be good.

And yet, even though more people voted against him he's still president.

You know you can even criticize a president you voted for too right? I didn't realize being elected shielded you from criticism and protest.

[A'Villan]

3 hours ago, WhatAboutTheFinish said:

If only the Americans could create some sort of environment where these topics could be discussed freely and then devise some sort of system where every person is given the chance to have an equal say in order to reach a consensus on the direction they want the country as a whole to take. Might be a good idea, as a safeguard, to give everybody the opportunity to change that direction,should they so wish, after a set period of time. Every four years might be good.

Speaking of periods of time. The United States of America, in its history, has only had 20 years where it's not been at war, and they're not even consecutive.

This is a country that profits from war-mongering. The citizen dies in wars, they don't get the contracts to make money off of them afterward.

It's no wonder people are protesting Trump, who's hardly a peace guardian.

 

Edited July 15, 2018 by A'Villan

[a m ole]

3 hours ago, WhatAboutTheFinish said:

equal

[WhatAboutTheFinish]

2 hours ago, ml1dch said:

Sounds good. And for the four years in between, everyone just shuts up?

 

2 hours ago, Keyblade said:

You know you can even criticize a president you voted for too right? I didn't realize being elected shielded you from criticism and protest.

Hey I’m not suggesting that people are above criticism but I do feel the way that debate is framed is quite important.

Under the two party syestems we have in the UK and US we all know that there are people on both sides of the political spectrum that ne’er the twain shall meet. Elections are ultimately decided by quite a small percentage, maybe 10%, of the population who are willing to change their votes. So, in my eyes, people should consider whether taking to the streets to mock, ridicule and denounce their previous choice is the best method to make these people change or does it entrench them further into their position?

Either way, in order for Trump to be removed from office at the next election, the Democrats are going to have to rely on the support of at least some of the f**king moronic facist apologists (as they’ve been labelled over the last few pages) that voted for Trump last time.

Edited July 15, 2018 by WhatAboutTheFinish

[bickster]

3 hours ago, WhatAboutTheFinish said:

If only the Americans could create some sort of environment where these topics could be discussed freely and then devise some sort of system where every person is given the chance to have an equal say in order to reach a consensus on the direction they want the country as a whole to take. Might be a good idea, as a safeguard, to give everybody the opportunity to change that direction,should they so wish, after a set period of time. Every four years might be good.

You know that the Republicans have only won the popular vote once since 1992 (Dubya's second term) yet have had three terms of office in that time

So your sarcastic "equal say" line is a bit hollow

[Keyblade]

14 minutes ago, WhatAboutTheFinish said:

Under the two party syestems we have in the UK and US we all know that there are people on both sides of the political spectrum that ne’er the twain shall meet.

It's funny because they're not even close to being on opposite sides of a political spectrum.

It's basically the overtly racist corporatist party vs the not-as-overtly-racist corporatist party, or far-right vs center-right...and yet by all the division you would think they were polar opposites.

Reminds me of that Chomsky quote:

Quote

The smart way to keep people passive and obedient is to strictly limit the spectrum of acceptable opinion, but allow very lively debate within that spectrum

 

Edited July 15, 2018 by Keyblade

[WhatAboutTheFinish]

@bickster @a m ole

I refer the honourable gentlemen to my previous answer.

 

On 14/07/2018 at 11:16, WhatAboutTheFinish said:

Today’s protests (anti Trump, anti Brexit etc) do seem to be more about the product of a system as opposed to the changing the system itself...which to some, myself included, does seem somewhat pointless.

If people were out on the streets demanding referendums were outlawed as a way determining government policy or proposing an alternative to the electoral college system (although why anyone would want to protest that in the UK I’m not sure) then maybe it would make more sense. 

 

 

[VILLAMARV]

@WhatAboutTheFinish, From small acorns mate.

Everyone is on a different journey.

That so many people are caught up in the wrong argument is amazingly frustrating I agree.

This touches on the wider point of the effectiveness of protest in the modern era. Something I almost rattled on about the other night and didn't but Bicks touches on the point here I reckon.

19 hours ago, bickster said:

Oh and on that subject lets not forget the Poll Tax protest had a reasonably big bearing on that policy being scrapped

That was the last time protest was effective imo.

Since then we've seen the Truckers strike which had a massive effect and ended (alledgedly) after organisers were contacted directly by SIS lets say.

The Anti-Iraq War protests - The largest protest in history - that had no effect.

The G20 protests during which a newspaper vendor guy was beaten by the police and died as a result for having the gaul to walk home from work.

That the precursor to all this was the Thatcher years of presiding over the Battle of Orgreave it all paints a sorry picture for the effectiveness of protest and indeed the tacet approval of the clamping down on the dissenting voice in our own country.

But like I say, small acorns. The point isn't about whether the protest has the desired effect, or the direct effect. Carrying Trump Out banners isn't going to get Trump actually out of anything right? But they all, whoever was there, have made people think. Actually think.

Look at this thread as an example. Probably the most interesting few pages of actual debate in a while. We are not so unique or special that we are the only ones who can see. We are just the mouthy few who bother to sound off on the internet. What more do we actually want than people talking about real things instead of Xfactor? What conclusions they reach will be relevant to their own journey and themselves.

As your point was allied to the "Why do they bother though I don't understand" stuff a few pages back these things are a minefield of information, you will always bump into people who will have many a conversation that will give you much food for thought. Much like the hive mind of VT being stronger than any individual poster.

People asking questions, people searching out real answers, people finding their dissenting voice, people understanding and literally feeling the positivity of working as a collective. Connecting with people instead of words on a message board or email. All these things are things we all ultimately benefit from imho.

 

[bickster]

2 hours ago, VILLAMARV said:

The Anti-Iraq War protests - The largest protest in history - that had no effect.

Not true, we didn't attack Syria, that particular protest played some part in showing that public opinion was against such moves

 

[VILLAMARV]

3 hours ago, bickster said:

Not true, we didn't attack Syria, that particular protest played some part in showing that public opinion was against such moves

 

So it didn't stop the Iraq invasion but it did make people think about things like it in the future you say.....

[VILLAMARV]

I get the point about it being an effective protest in that regard though and noted

Edited July 15, 2018 by VILLAMARV
fleshed out