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Which existing players fit the O'Neill system.


bickster

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good for you TRO.

I doubt some inane comment of mine is goingt o lose any sleep in the O'Neill household but its nice of you to say so.

I am rather concerned that critics of my and others stance on O'Neill seem to want to tie in my comments on O'Leary to how they want to see me comment on O'Neill.

Sadly I am not going to give them the chance for any sort of revenge or pay back where he is concerned.

I like him, and he's shown me enough to suggest he can do well for us short term. I keep saying he has been out of the Premiership for some time though, time in which it has changed dramatically, especially for those wishing to compete in Europe each year.

Not a criticism that I doubt he has the sort of experience that Wenger, sir Alex, Raffa, Mourinho, has, its fact, a few runs in the Fairs Cup amount to nothing, ask O'Leary and Gregory.

As to putting O'Leary to bed, why do I need to ?

Has he committed some heinous crime that stops me mentioning him ?

Seems to me you are the one with the hang up, and possibly humour byepass too.

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Interesting, the range of replies Malcolm's initial article has produced.

As an old codger, I believe that true to form, his opening paragraph was intended to provoke responses, but I think that BOF has summed his article up very well.

However, using a phrase with "I Hate" in it, it was perhaps inevitable with Malcolm's reputation for the controversial, going to bring forth some strong views. I wonder if an analysis of responses would indicate an age bias for each end of the spectrum of replies.

As someone who first went to VP in the 1940s, I have seen them through many ups and downs, (too many downs unfortunately), but like most, I really believe that a true revolution is underway and we have an owner who will take the club back to the pinnacle of European football, and that we also have a thinking, intelligent manager who will make mistakes, but I fancy, they'll be significantly less than his predecessor and that he'll prove to be eventually on a level that bears direct comparison with Ferguson and Mourinho.

:roll:

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In 2003, O'Neill was number 5 in the manager of year awards from World Soccer magazine, after Ancelotti, Lippi, Mourhinho and Ferguson.

Not rated?

Since then he's been out of football for nearly 2 years and out of the Premiership for 5

What's his rating today ?

Remember we no longer live in the past this is a the new dawn remember

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As someone who first went to VP in the 1940s, I have seen them through many ups and downs, (too many downs unfortunately), but like most, I really believe that a true revolution is underway and we have an owner who will take the club back to the pinnacle of European football, and that we also have a thinking, intelligent manager who will make mistakes, but I fancy, they'll be significantly less than his predecessor and that he'll prove to be eventually on a level that bears direct comparison with Ferguson and Mourinho.

:roll:

I can relate very well to those comments

Its something I'm working on but suffice it to say potentially things have never been better.

O'Neill could indeed do as you say, I have no reason to believe he won't, I do have several reasons to doubt he will achieve the level of Mourinho and Ferguson, and until he proves me wrong or shows me reasons to why he will I will remain sceptical.

That doesn't mean I don't like him, don't rate him, don't think he's a genius, I do, its just that in nearly 4 months at Villa he's not had much chance to prove other than what he has

Which in itself has been nothing short of spectacular

Trouble is this is the Premiership and the Europe of 2006/2007 not Ron Saunders time, not 1998, not the Scottish Prem, and managers with proven European experience, full of new ideas, new tactics, backed by huge funds are failing because of the difficulties. Sure O'Neill may still be capable, it would be great if he is, but I'm still to be convinced and won't be for some time yet

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In 2003, O'Neill was number 5 in the manager of year awards from World Soccer magazine, after Ancelotti, Lippi, Mourhinho and Ferguson.

Not rated?

It's getting ridiculous now. Who said he's not rated ? Your post is the first post in this thread to use the word 'rated' in any context. It is only people mis-interpreting the posts that have gone before who think this is some kind of MON-bash when nothing could be further from the truth.

Learn to read maybe:

My doubts centre around his age and the age of his backroom team and the time he has spent out of the Premiership, and of course his lack of European experience

I wasn't criticising anybody, just responding to the above point by stating that in his last season as a manager, a respected magazine voted him 5th best manager in Europe.

I think you need to calm down a bit mate, it's a discussion forum.

A

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O'Neill could indeed do as you say, I have no reason to believe he won't, I do have several reasons to doubt he will achieve the level of Mourinho and Ferguson, and until he proves me wrong or shows me reasons to why he will I will remain sceptical.

That doesn't mean I don't like him, don't rate him, don't think he's a genius, I do, its just that in nearly 4 months at Villa he's not had much chance to prove other than what he has. Which in itself has been nothing short of spectacular

Trouble is this is the Premiership and the Europe of 2006/2007 not Ron Saunders time, not 1998, not the Scottish Prem, and managers with proven European experience, full of new ideas, new tactics, backed by huge funds are failing because of the difficulties. Sure O'Neill may still be capable, it would be great if he is, but I'm still to be convinced and won't be for some time yet

Malcolm,

I don't think my reply said or implied you didn't like/rate etc. MON, and in any case, your opinion is as valid as anyone elses.

I am interested to know though, the several reasons you doubt MON's ability to reach Mourinho/Ferguson's level. His exposure to the really top level of European football has been limited at present to his Celtic exploits, but of all the other managers in the Premiership other than the two named, I think we have the best, with the potential to eventually be on a par with them.

Of course he has still to learn more about guiding a club to the top of the European tree, but all of life is a learning experience, right up until the end. It's the ability to learn and want to that's important and MON gives every indication of doing this. His intelligent, thoughtful and realistic comments when interviewed marks him as very different character to many managers, and he has, as you observed, achieved quite a lot in a short time.

As you point out it is 2006/07, and requirements are very different now, but to date in his career at all levels, MON has demonstrated an ability to man manage, and this one element alone marks him as having a distinct advantage over many managers with more European experience. Pots of money helps of course, but in the end, it's how a team gels and MON seems to have this inate ability and the personality to gather his team behind him.

All in all Malcolm, perhaps you should be a tad more optimistic, without going overboard, as perhaps some have, and give MON the benefit of any doubts until at least into the New Year.

As ever, Up The Villa

:wink:

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Learn to read maybe:

My doubts centre around his age and the age of his backroom team and the time he has spent out of the Premiership, and of course his lack of European experience

I wasn't criticising anybody, just responding to the above point by stating that in his last season as a manager, a respected magazine voted him 5th best manager in Europe.

I think you need to calm down a bit mate, it's a discussion forum.

A

I did read, I am calm and yes it is a discussion forum. I just thought it a significant difference between someone having doubts about someone's age and someone not rating someone, that's all.

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All in all Malcolm, perhaps you should be a tad more optimistic, without going overboard, as perhaps some have, and give MON the benefit of any doubts until at least into the New Year.

As ever, Up The Villa

:wink:

I have been mate and then some accuse me of edging my bets so that at the end of the season I can say I told you so ;)

I keep saying I'm well impressed, I keep saying after the Everton game I was really converted, and I said in the comment you replied to its a bit early to say how he will perform in Europe he's not had chance to even get there, with Villa, let alone perform and in a way that's where my doubts come from.

Sir Alex took on newer ideas and look at the experience he had in Europe, can you see O'Neill doing the same.

He may not need to, but facts are he's never experienced European football on the big scale and he's no spring chicken.

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To say he's never experienced European Football on the big scale is a wee bit erroneous to my mind. He's only won the thing twice as a player. He also got to the final of the UEFA Cup with Celtic as a manager. I know where you are coming from but to say he's got limited experience in Europe just isn't true imo.

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He may not need to, but facts are he's never experienced European football on the big scale and he's no spring chicken.

Apart from a UEFA Cup final of course. And he's not exactly old. I'd have settled for Alex Ferguson as our boss for the last ten years.

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Apologists unite, O'Neill is an experienced expert on modern day European Soccer.

He's played in two finals when a player and managed a club in what was/is a second rate competition. I bet Raffa, Mourinho, Wenger, Rijkaard to say nothing of Lipi, and especially Sir Alex are quaking in their boots.

Its incredible to think O'Neill can be said to match their past let alone their present experience, considering their individual playing and managerial experience it really is.

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He may not need to, but facts are he's never experienced European football on the big scale and he's no spring chicken.

Apart from a UEFA Cup final of course. And he's not exactly old. I'd have settled for Alex Ferguson as our boss for the last ten years.

So would I, and even now with his vast experience of winning Premiership titles and European matches I wouldn't mind him in charge today.

Thing is with O'Neill as good as he is, he's won very little especially in Europe, oh apart from two medals as a player which obviously must equate somewhat oh and a EUFA cup final, he lost it didn't he ?

Don't know how mind but I'm sure it does

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Missing the point as usual. He's never been at a club equipped to win anything in Europe, and the fact that he got Celtic to a final at all is pretty amazing.

Its incredible to think O'Neill can be said to match their past let alone their present experience

Where has anyone said that exactly? All I've argued is that he's done pretty well in Europe considering the clubs he's been at, and doesn't deserve to have his record written off quite so easily. Don't forget when he took over at Celtic, they were in a mess after the John Barnes disaster.

Just my opinion, but I think that if Ferguson had stepped down at any point in the last 2-3 years and O'Neill's wife hadn't been ill, he'd be their manager now and doing pretty well in the Champions League.

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Missing the point as usual. He's never been at a club equipped to win anything in Europe, and the fact that he got Celtic to a final at all is pretty amazing.

So you obviously rate Strachan very highly then or have I missed another of your points ?

I'd didn't say he had, although I know several fans of Celtic who would disagree with you there.

I'm not saying he's not capable I am saying he's not proved he's capable. Whether that has to do with lack of ability, or not having the resources in the past I've no idea, suffice it to say, he's had several chances at Celtic and didn't manage it.

Mind you what is certain is that the setup he now belongs to, if it keeps on as its started, is his golden opportunity and one he will no doubt grasp willingly.

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I'm not saying he's not capable I am saying he's not proved he's capable. Whether that has to do with lack of ability, or not having the resources in the past I've no idea, suffice it to say, he's had several chances at Celtic and didn't manage it.

I'd venture the opposite Malc and say that I think MONty proved himself very capable whilst at Celtic.

and at Lie-chester too.

OK, so he didn't win the Champs League with either. But he did very well with both in domestic competitions, and did well with Celtic in the UEFA Cup.

I don't know what more you were/are expecting of him, given the clubs he's been at.

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OK, so he didn't win the Champs League with either. But he did very well with both in domestic competitions, and did well with Celtic in the UEFA Cup.

I don't know what more you were/are expecting of him, given the clubs he's been at.

We're going around in circles here. I think it is exactly because he has been at 'those' types of club and not a top top club that people are wondering if he can make the jump. I think he can, but it doesn't mean people can't ask the question. As I said in my response - doing well at Leicester is completely different to doing well at the top of the league. But again, I am confident he can and will do it - he just hasn't done it yet in his career (Scotland is not a major league).

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I was also alluding to the fact that MONty had got a "small-ish" side to the final of the UEFA Cup.

But then again, Stevie Mac did that too, so i don't want to make too big a play of it :wink:

I just think it serves no purpose to keep being told that he hasn't won anything major. We know that. He's not been in a position to, yet.

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How many managers have won anything major? How many are still in jobs? How many would leave their club to join us?

Quite simply MON is the best manager we could have ever appointed. Every clu in the country outside the top 3, and even them when they lose their current manager's , would all want MON as a manager.

How anyone can even allude anything different is beyond me

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