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Rino8
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You genuinely don't see what is offensive about that? Blaming the deaths of 135 people solely at the feet of the Liverpool fans? 

 

You have issues. 

 

I'll ask again, did you read the article on the previous page? I'm not asking about a "report" I am asking you about that specific article posted on the previous page. I am not asking you to take it as gospel or suggesting that it is, I am asking you to respond to it's content. I would have thought that somebody prepared to throw around such accusations would at least do the most rudimentary of research first. 

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Yes Ive read it.

 

to be honest it just re in forces what i think. A  group of smaller and unconnected facts are built up into a whole story - the hot dog incident, the stadium being due fore demolition, etc, etc,  - on what basis is that article being held up as the truth ? 

 

Im not accusing anyone of anything. I'm just saying over 25 years they have con cocted  an argument that now suits them - for example reports like this don't often make the public eye 

 

 

"Several times both back then and since I have studied the CCTV footage of clearly identifiable Liverpool fans crashing one of the gates into the doomed semi-final"

 

no that's not me, its here

 

https://hat4uk.wordpress.com/2012/09/13/hillsborough-herewith-probably-the-most-unpopular-post-on-the-net-today/

 

 

Good summary of more or less my thoughts:-

 

The illegally forced entry placed an intolerable pressure on that end of the ground – and led to the sickening suffocation of innocent people who did have tickets. While I accept entirely that the Yorkshire police (a) moved at the speed of a snail on valium to do anything about it, and thus (B) displayed all the bravery of a hermit crab trained by Health & Safety, later © doubling their cowardly amorality while trying to fit up innocent fans, I do not accept this lachrymose rubbish about saintly Scousers….any more than I would have turned a blind eye to the criminal behaviour of Mancunians, East London skinheads and Celtic fans during that sorry era

 

 

Brian Clough and Jimmy Greaves have said similar.

Edited by smetrov
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It's perfectly valid to dislike Liverpool as a club and to look at events like Heysel, Hillsborough with a degree of balance. Aknowledging historical context is a pretty basic cognitive skill to be honest. Smetrov mate, probably be best to back down on this one.

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It's perfectly valid to dislike Liverpool as a club and to look at events like Heysel, Hillsborough with a degree of balance. Aknowledging historical context is a pretty basic cognitive skill to be honest. Smetrov mate, probably be best to back down on this one.[/

Edited by smetrov
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It's perfectly valid to dislike Liverpool as a club and to look at events like Heysel, Hillsborough with a degree of balance. Aknowledging historical context is a pretty basic cognitive skill to be honest. Smetrov mate, probably be best to back down on this one.

 

Yes youre right - I am probably best to back down - everyone else has had to do. I m surprised that web page I linked is still standing.

Don't be a martyr, it's hypocritical. ;)

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More of the offensive garbage about Hillsborough from the same offender again, I see.

 

Hey - if you want to believe a report 25 years in the making fine.

 

I will trust my instincts

 

 

Yeah, what sort of fool would believe facts and evidence when there is a nescient, misinformed gut feeling to go with instead.

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Yes Ive read it.

to be honest it just re in forces what i think. A group of smaller and unconnected facts are built up into a whole story - the hot dog incident, the stadium being due fore demolition, etc, etc, - on what basis is that article being held up as the truth ?

Those are facts. UEFA's negligence is fact. The events of Rome the previous season is a fact. Hooliganism not being confined to Liverpool FC in 1985 is fact.

Do you understand causality, at all? I know you had a pop at me once for using fancy words, maybe that's one you should look up.

I never once asked you about Hillsborough by the way I am asking about Heysel. You do not seem to wish to engage me on that? You are using this as a vehicle to push your offensive views regarding another completely separate matter and if you do not wish to have an adult debate with me I'd rather know now and bow out, save everyone the pain.

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Heysel was the straw that broke the camels back for UEFA regarding English teams who had run amok on the continent in seasons gone by. What happened that night was tragic though the stadium was at fault and so was the organisers along with some fans in my view.  nearly 30 known hooligans were arrested 

 

the thing that was most chilling of all was Liverpool fans in Athens in 2007 nearly caused a similar enough incident

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Really if the stadium was partly to blame it was because of the fences. They were a death trap waiting to happen. As proven the police shoulder most of the blame. No blame should have been attached to the supporters.

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Heysel was the straw that broke the camels back for UEFA regarding English teams who had run amok on the continent in seasons gone by. What happened that night was tragic though the stadium was at fault and so was the organisers along with some fans in my view. nearly 30 known hooligans were arrested

the thing that was most chilling of all was Liverpool fans in Athens in 2007 nearly caused a similar enough incident

I don't think anybody has tried to absolve the fans of all blame. Fact is though they shouldn't have been in that situation in the first place or anything like it. You would call it a farce if it wasn't so tragic.

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Yes Ive read it.

to be honest it just re in forces what i think. A group of smaller and unconnected facts are built up into a whole story - the hot dog incident, the stadium being due fore demolition, etc, etc, - on what basis is that article being held up as the truth ?

Those are facts. UEFA's negligence is fact. The events of Rome the previous season is a fact. Hooliganism not being confined to Liverpool FC in 1985 is fact.

Do you understand causality, at all? I know you had a pop at me once for using fancy words, maybe that's one you should look up.

I never once asked you about Hillsborough by the way I am asking about Heysel. You do not seem to wish to engage me on that? You are using this as a vehicle to push your offensive views regarding another completely separate matter and if you do not wish to have an adult debate with me I'd rather know now and bow out, save everyone the pain.

 

 

Ever thought of a career in politics DDID ?

 

Youve stitched Smetrov up a treat here

 

The article you linked discusses both Heysel and Hillsborough

 

You asked for the article to be read - but not take it as gospel

 

Then snap back that those are the facts (even the author said some of the content couldn't be verified)

 

Then a complete about turn where you imply Liverpool fans shouldn't be completley absolved of blame (a view point you previously lambasted a few posts back)

 

 

I could be wrong but I don't beleive you were of an age to be attending football matches in the 1980's ?  yet a bit of web browing and you set yourself up and some big authority on the subject.

 

Do us all a favour and get of your pompus high horse.

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Ouch. 

 

I may have been a little heavy handed in my reply there, but I will ask you to understand that I am replying to somebody that has expressed frankly abhorrent views with regards to Hillsborough in the past, proven by other replies to him in this thread. I will admit that presenting the slashing incident as fact was a little naughty of me. I retract that statement. 

 

The article I post has nothing to do with Hillsborough. The link is only given as it is in the site rules to do so. The article also reports on Valley Parade and Ibrox in great depth and yet the poster chose not to broach those subjects. Why? I have no interest in discussing Hillsborough because I am not knowledgeable enough on the subject. I feel that taking my point and twisting it to create a platform to discuss the events of Hillsborough to be completely unfair. 

 

I have never once stated that the Liverpool fans on that day should not be held accountable. Indeed, 14 Liverpool fans were rightly convicted of involuntary manslaughter. How about UEFA? How about the stadium authorities or the Belgian police? Again, causality is not confined to one event. There was a chain of events that lead up to the disaster that has never been acknowledged by the authorities nor will it ever be if we the public ignore it. 

 

I did not attend football matches in the 80's no. But I did have a brick bounce off my head at a football game in the 90's. Thrown by a Derby fan. I was a teenager at the time. I also got caught up in a skirmish and was kicked to the ground the day we relegated Coventry in 2001. These events took place not in some far flung area of the world, nor were they at Anfield. These events happened at Villa Park. 

 

Maybe the rest of the football community needs to get off it's pompous high horse? 

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I came back from the old Millwall ground on the villa coach once and Millwall fans were throwing bricks at the windows. It was quite terrfying really. Yet I've stood up the Kop with a villa scarf and got looks but thats all. I would not have dared do that at Millwall.

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Ouch. 

 

I may have been a little heavy handed in my reply there, but I will ask you to understand that I am replying to somebody that has expressed frankly abhorrent views with regards to Hillsborough in the past, proven by other replies to him in this thread. I will admit that presenting the slashing incident as fact was a little naughty of me. I retract that statement. 

 

The article I post has nothing to do with Hillsborough. The link is only given as it is in the site rules to do so. The article also reports on Valley Parade and Ibrox in great depth and yet the poster chose not to broach those subjects. Why? I have no interest in discussing Hillsborough because I am not knowledgeable enough on the subject. I feel that taking my point and twisting it to create a platform to discuss the events of Hillsborough to be completely unfair. 

 

I

 

 

 

 

Youve thrown a lot of stuff in that post to muddy the waters. Can you tell me where he has said this

 

"Blaming the deaths of 135 people solely at the feet of the Liverpool fans? 

 

You have issues". 

 

For someone who thrives on the moral high ground, thats a very low shot.

Edited by hippo
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Ouch. 

 

I may have been a little heavy handed in my reply there, but I will ask you to understand that I am replying to somebody that has expressed frankly abhorrent views with regards to Hillsborough in the past, proven by other replies to him in this thread. I will admit that presenting the slashing incident as fact was a little naughty of me. I retract that statement. 

 

The article I post has nothing to do with Hillsborough. The link is only given as it is in the site rules to do so. The article also reports on Valley Parade and Ibrox in great depth and yet the poster chose not to broach those subjects. Why? I have no interest in discussing Hillsborough because I am not knowledgeable enough on the subject. I feel that taking my point and twisting it to create a platform to discuss the events of Hillsborough to be completely unfair. 

 

I

 

 

 

 

Youve thrown a lot of stuff in that post to muddy the waters. Can you tell me where he has said this

 

"Blaming the deaths of 135 people solely at the feet of the Liverpool fans? 

 

You have issues". 

 

For someone who thrives on the moral high ground, thats a very low shot.

 

 

I have answered your post as best I can, even succeeding on a couple of points. I'm not sure what else I can do to appease you?

 

He has previous. That is as far as I am willing to go with that.  

 

Also, making a general statement that I am somebody who "thrives on the moral high ground" is an odd one. You should read the confessions thread, I have virtually no morals in comparison to the average bear. I just happen to have quite passionate views on this subject along with the opinions of one poster in particular regarding it and others like it. 

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Ouch. 

 

I may have been a little heavy handed in my reply there, but I will ask you to understand that I am replying to somebody that has expressed frankly abhorrent views with regards to Hillsborough in the past, proven by other replies to him in this thread. I will admit that presenting the slashing incident as fact was a little naughty of me. I retract that statement. 

 

The article I post has nothing to do with Hillsborough. The link is only given as it is in the site rules to do so. The article also reports on Valley Parade and Ibrox in great depth and yet the poster chose not to broach those subjects. Why? I have no interest in discussing Hillsborough because I am not knowledgeable enough on the subject. I feel that taking my point and twisting it to create a platform to discuss the events of Hillsborough to be completely unfair. 

 

I

 

 

 

 

Youve thrown a lot of stuff in that post to muddy the waters. Can you tell me where he has said this

 

"Blaming the deaths of 135 people solely at the feet of the Liverpool fans? 

 

You have issues". 

 

For someone who thrives on the moral high ground, thats a very low shot.

 

 

I have answered your post as best I can, even succeeding on a couple of points. I'm not sure what else I can do to appease you?

 

He has previous. That is as far as I am willing to go with that.  

 

Also, making a general statement that I am somebody who "thrives on the moral high ground" is an odd one. You should read the confessions thread, I have virtually no morals in comparison to the average bear. I just happen to have quite passionate views on this subject along with the opinions of one poster in particular regarding it and others like it. 

 

 

Interesting quotes from Norman Bettison about Hillsbrough  this morning

 

 

 “I think a lot of people, all of us, seek to be on the side of the angels, and I think some people try harder than others.”

 

No doubt he will get lambsted for those comments, but highly appropiate that we hear all sides of the events.

 

BTW had a PM from Smetrov, sure you will be pleased to hear DDID, he has quit VT. You might want to be a little less hasty in posting what you think other people opinions are.  

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