StanBalaban Posted December 16, 2013 Share Posted December 16, 2013 In the match thread, people were saying it was ridiculous that Donacien wasn't at least on the bench, so could it even be argued that we have 5 already? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kwan Posted December 16, 2013 Share Posted December 16, 2013 That's just the substitute fallacy. Truth is no one knows if Donacien is ready and somehow he should start against United as if that will make the situation better. We had shitty luck with our center backs. That's just how it is with a thin squad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zatman Posted December 16, 2013 Share Posted December 16, 2013 but could say the same about other teams, injuries are part of football. even with all their wealth City have had defensive crisis with a lot of injuries this season that they had Garcia playing there a few times Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StanBalaban Posted December 16, 2013 Share Posted December 16, 2013 That's just the substitute fallacy. Truth is no one knows if Donacien is ready and somehow he should start against United as if that will make the situation better. We had shitty luck with our center backs. That's just how it is with a thin squad. No I fully agree. I find it amusing that people say he should be on the bench with such authority, without any knowledge of what stage in his development he's at. We undoubtedly have a thin squad, but we do have 4 dedicated CB's which, it would seem, is in line with the majority of other clubs. Smetrov was saying that the manager should've bought another one, which is where the discussion began IIRC. It's more to do with the fact that after the first 3 CB's, there's a drop off in quality to no. 4. The bad luck is having no's 1 & 2 out at the same time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AVTuco Posted December 16, 2013 VT Supporter Share Posted December 16, 2013 Vlaar and Clark as CB duo has been the best part of our team this season. Our problems lie elsewhere. Okore would have been fine as a back up and starter too. Baker is an ok fourth choice. We've had rotten luck, and an upgrade to Baker would have been great. But there has to be a limit to back ups for a team with limited resources like us. If we had more money I'd have used it elsewhere, not CB. Like AM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biskitt Posted December 16, 2013 Share Posted December 16, 2013 The simple fact is that If you took out the first choice centre back pairings of the majority of teams in the league then they're likely to struggle defensively. Really thought Okore and Vlaar had the potential to be an excellent partnership as they offer different qualities to each other and are both good on the ball. Clarke and Baker would then have been fine as backups Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VillaChris Posted December 16, 2013 Share Posted December 16, 2013 O.k Man. United are one team, obviously they need cover with Vidic and Ferdinand in their 30s and both injury prone. Look at the other top 4 teams and none of these have 5 cbs in their squad, Arsenal only have 3! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VillaChris Posted December 16, 2013 Share Posted December 16, 2013 For City Richards is primarily a right back these days but can play there in an emergency so bit like Herd and Lowton. Demiechels ain't up too much, doesn't look much better than Baker and think they only signed him as they thought Lescott would be on the move which will probably happen in January. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smetrov Posted December 17, 2013 Share Posted December 17, 2013 We would've been covered had Okore not been out for the season. Ive been watching villa for 40 years - seen some great teams 1974/5 Promotion & League Cup Double winning side 1977 - league Cup winning side 1980/81 - Championship Side 1982 - Nuff Said 1989/90 - Runner up team Graham Taylor The Cup winning teams of Big Ron + Brain Little None of the teams above had rookies playing at cenre back. Its often overlooked but the 1980/81 team was packed with players around 20 years old - Yet we had 2 stalwarts Evans/Mcnaught at centre half 1982 team started to fall apart when local lad Brendan Ormsby was given a run at CB after the sale of Mcnaught. ...You need senior pro's at the back.... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mantis Posted December 17, 2013 Share Posted December 17, 2013 (edited) We would've been covered had Okore not been out for the season. Ive been watching villa for 40 years - seen some great teams 1974/5 Promotion & League Cup Double winning side 1977 - league Cup winning side 1980/81 - Championship Side 1982 - Nuff Said 1989/90 - Runner up team Graham Taylor The Cup winning teams of Big Ron + Brain Little None of the teams above had rookies playing at cenre back. Its often overlooked but the 1980/81 team was packed with players around 20 years old - Yet we had 2 stalwarts Evans/Mcnaught at centre half 1982 team started to fall apart when local lad Brendan Ormsby was given a run at CB after the sale of Mcnaught. ...You need senior pro's at the back.... I'm sorry but what relevance do seasons that happened decades ago have to today? There's no point in living in the past. You need good players at the back, just like everywhere else. We looked great defensively under Vlaar and Clark despite the fact that Clark could hardly be described as a "senior pro". Edited December 17, 2013 by Mantis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NIVillan Posted December 17, 2013 Share Posted December 17, 2013 We would've been covered had Okore not been out for the season. Ive been watching villa for 40 years - seen some great teams 1974/5 Promotion & League Cup Double winning side 1977 - league Cup winning side 1980/81 - Championship Side 1982 - Nuff Said 1989/90 - Runner up team Graham Taylor The Cup winning teams of Big Ron + Brain Little None of the teams above had rookies playing at cenre back. Its often overlooked but the 1980/81 team was packed with players around 20 years old - Yet we had 2 stalwarts Evans/Mcnaught at centre half 1982 team started to fall apart when local lad Brendan Ormsby was given a run at CB after the sale of Mcnaught. ...You need senior pro's at the back.... I'm sorry but what relevance do seasons that happened decades ago have to today? There's no point in living in the past. You need good players at the back, just like everywhere else. We looked great defensively under Vlaar and Clark despite the fact that Clark could hardly be described as a "senior pro". Because if you do not review what went on in the past how do you learn so you take the correct path in the future? History is more than just a collection of stories. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kwan Posted December 17, 2013 Share Posted December 17, 2013 Lol who said anything about winning trophies this year? A couple years down the line when the current crop of CB's are more experienced then we might get a cup run but trying to draw comparisons of the squads that won cups to this one is silly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zhan_Zhuang Posted December 17, 2013 Share Posted December 17, 2013 Think you are missing the point, what Smetrov means and correct me if I'm wrong is that it is best to have experience in key positions. Having two rookie centre-halves is a recipe for conceding goals much like around the festive period last year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zatman Posted December 17, 2013 Share Posted December 17, 2013 yeah but I dont think Clark and Okore or Clark and Baker would be probably be better than having Cuellar and Collins at centre half Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LondonLax Posted December 17, 2013 Share Posted December 17, 2013 Yes, the CB position is probably the worst one on the field to have rookie in it. Unfortunately that's where we are with the injuries we are having there. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kwan Posted December 17, 2013 Share Posted December 17, 2013 yeah but I dont think Clark and Okore or Clark and Baker would be probably be better than having Cuellar and Collins at centre half That's exactly it. It would have been all fine and roses if it was Vlaar and Okore with Clark as backup and Baker as 4th choice. Outside of the top teams, if you take out any of their top two pairings at CB, they will be demonstratively worse. Vlaar you can make a case for injury but a season long one to Okore was a bad luck. We had reasonable cover with the squad and budget and in all honesty, there was a lot of other areas to improve other than CB during the summer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AVTuco Posted December 17, 2013 VT Supporter Share Posted December 17, 2013 (edited) We would've been covered had Okore not been out for the season. Ive been watching villa for 40 years - seen some great teams 1974/5 Promotion & League Cup Double winning side 1977 - league Cup winning side 1980/81 - Championship Side 1982 - Nuff Said 1989/90 - Runner up team Graham Taylor The Cup winning teams of Big Ron + Brain Little None of the teams above had rookies playing at cenre back. Its often overlooked but the 1980/81 team was packed with players around 20 years old - Yet we had 2 stalwarts Evans/Mcnaught at centre half 1982 team started to fall apart when local lad Brendan Ormsby was given a run at CB after the sale of Mcnaught. ...You need senior pro's at the back....Brendan Ormsby? Haha, it's been a long time since I heard that name. Thanks smetrov! Oh, and I kind of agree with your point regarding experience at CB. If given the choice, you would want both of them experienced. However, one experienced one can suffice also, like Mantis' example shows. Edited December 17, 2013 by AVTuco Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mantis Posted December 17, 2013 Share Posted December 17, 2013 Because if you do not review what went on in the past how do you learn so you take the correct path in the future? History is more than just a collection of stories. When it comes to football history is often irrelevant to the present, and I say this as somebody who is proud of our history. Football is completely different today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smetrov Posted December 17, 2013 Share Posted December 17, 2013 Because if you do not review what went on in the past how do you learn so you take the correct path in the future? History is more than just a collection of stories. When it comes to football history is often irrelevant to the present, and I say this as somebody who is proud of our history. Football is completely different today. Well I disagree - if anything its tougher for a youngster to cut it in the prem. Like I say I can't think of villa side that won anything with a couple of rookie CB'S - I can't really think of a pairing at another club either... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mantis Posted December 17, 2013 Share Posted December 17, 2013 Because if you do not review what went on in the past how do you learn so you take the correct path in the future? History is more than just a collection of stories. When it comes to football history is often irrelevant to the present, and I say this as somebody who is proud of our history. Football is completely different today. Well I disagree - if anything its tougher for a youngster to cut it in the prem. Like I say I can't think of villa side that won anything with a couple of rookie CB'S - I can't really think of a pairing at another club either... Well firstly we're not really in the hunt for trophies this season and secondly we would have a CB who isn't a "rookie" playing but he's injured at the moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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