Expectations, Expectations, Expectations or is it?

[Risso]

O'Leary managed 6th and 10th with much the same men minus, some interesting new talent now stars in the squad, so why shouldn't we.

Which cleverly avoids any mention at all of giving us our worst ever Premiership season with "much the same men".

I'm not talking of spending Chelsea money, never have, I am asking for the manager to meet the expectation level some have put on him.

And what expectations are those? A major improvement on last season is all I'm after, and so far it looks like that's what we're getting.

[Digsby]

O'Leary managed 6th and 10th with much the same men minus, some interesting new talent now stars in the squad, so why shouldn't we.

Which cleverly avoids any mention at all of giving us our worst ever Premiership season with "much the same men".

It's not an exact science, comparing one season to the next - but i think it is fair to say that certain players were not playing for the manager last season - hence the poor stats.

When the core of the team we currently have, have applied themselves sufficiently we have been no lower than 10th.

[blandy]

I still maintain that you can't have it both ways here.

It's not about having it both ways, IMO, it's about there being something between "total hero" and "total useless" at every level

Either we have the dream ticket or we don't.

That would depend on your dream being the same as anyone else's?

How many sides have better squads per se than us, out[side] the top four, and of the top four we are in the mix as of today with two of them.

About 7 as of today, including the top 4.

Why do we have to build the club from the ground up, that's Ellis type rhetoric, put off talk, jam tomorrow thinking.

No it's absolutely not. It's reality in my view. If the owners and manager weren't looking at every aspect of the club, continulally, then they'd be failing. Some parts are good, most aren't. Youth development - good, attitude to fans - good in parts, but terrible in others until the takeover.

Facilities - average to poor in a lot of respects. PR, relationships with media, the council the local community, marketing....I could go on - but they weren't great were they? There's a lot to do to make us a top club, as opposed to a flash in the pan.

We have a squad now that should with a decent run of injuries, achieve a top 10 place. If not O'Neill is an idiot not the manager those advocating the slow approach are saying, is he.

Aye, top 10 should be possible.

O'Leary managed 6th and 10th with much the same men minus, some interesting new talent now stars in the squad, so why shouldn't we.

And 16/17th, too. He got worse, MO'N should get better - over 3 years.

With the right transfers in, in January we should push on for a top 5 finish why not, what has building the club up from the ground got to do with it.

Now that's jam today, but stuff tomorrow, isn't it?

Surely both are important. Make the team better, go for a good finish as you say, but at the same time improve other parts of the club. It was rotting in places.

Success breads success, a good cup run gets the crowds in, a good European run gets crowds and tv and revenue well in, what has what Ellis did in the past got to do with anything.

Aye. You can learn from others mistakes, if you're wise. Ellis IMO wasn't just inadequate, he was of the wrong character to be able to learn lessons, get better, but that's irrelevant, except that he damaged our standing and reputation and it needs repairing.

I'm not talking of spending Chelsea money, never have, I am asking for the manager to meet the expectation level some have put on him.

If people think highly of him, it does not automatically follow that they expect us to win the league this season, or get in Euro telly cup this season. I believe most sane observers want us to progress. They want us to show eveidence of real progress by the end of the season, but understand where we're coming from, which was disarray. The players statement wasn't a fabrication. It reflected a terrible mood at the club, and a rotten situation. It shouldn't be forgotten, but it shouldn't be an excuse either.

If he does and if he gets the right backing why is it so impossible to achieve a top 5 place, is it some of you deep down have fears O'Neill may not be up to it?

It's not impossible, but it shouldn't be the bar against which he is judged at the end of the season, let alone after 10 games.

Personally speaking, there is always a fear that any manager, whether he be Lippi, Fergie, Wenger, or Morinho etc. will not do all that is expected. The same applies to MON. He does have a lot to prove to be judged as truly top quality with loads of trophies to prove it, but equally he has a lot to suggest he will take us forwards, The same applies to RL and GK and the rest of the board.

Basically so much of football is about the intangibles - hope, belief, confidence and right now we're hopeful. Allow us that.

[Risso]

When the core of the team we currently have, have applied themselves sufficiently we have been no lower than 10th.

I'd say we have at best half of the team that finished 10th, and less than that that finished 6th.

Ridgewell, Hughes, Petrov, Bouma, Davis and Agbonlahor were hardly the core back then.

[PB]

I dont recall anyone saying that with Ellis gone everything would be better overnight. Its is better though, pretty much overnight. Still a long, long way to go though. Root and branch change, remember? The old stuff needs t be pruned away and time allowed for the new growth.

It is also better with O'leary gone and MON in. I have no doubts about MON at all really. This sint the same thing as saying "top six this season or he;s a failure". if, given the levels of support we can reasonably expect him to get, he isnt pushing hard for a Champions League spot by the end of his third season, and we havent had a juicy cup run or two along the way, then I think you might conclude he had failed, but even that is subjective to be honest. if he achieves that, then it will, imho, represent one of the biggest and swiftest turnarounds in a club's fortunes seen in the Premiership era.

Last Saturday we saw how far, on the pitch, we have to go, how far behind these teams we actually are. This isnt just a problem you can throw a shed load of cash at and hope to resolve. This is a whole club issue.

I'm not interested in someone standing up waving a list of "the world's top players" that they are trying to bring to Villa, or in someone briefing the press on £20m transfer budgets, or someone promising training ground developments. I believe we have been here before.

Right now, I am happy to sit back and trust the people running the club to get it right. To date they have shown in every regard that they know what needs to be done to get it right and their respective track records suggests they have the ability to fulfill that vision. After 25 years of Ellis, this is enough for me. You can call that the prozac approach, I will call it a realistic level of expectation, a realisitic level of hope, a realistic level of dreaming

Give me organic growth, steady and certain and above all sustainable. I want my 10 year old son to be watching Villa at the top of the tree when he is my age. This is more important to me than watching Villa top of the tree tomorrow, and back in the crap again the day after, with my son supporting some crap has been club, as I have been for a long time. I wouldnt wish that on my worst enemy

[Jon]

seems Malc is hankering after some Leeds type "success" of 6/7 years ago. Jam today, sod tomorrow, as Blandy rightly noted.

Also trying to crank up the pressure on MON to get immediate results.

MON was bought in too late for that. This season for me is one of assessment and rebuilding with a hoped for gradual improvement on the pitch. That's what i think we're getting at the moment (with the odd blip along ther way).

I'd rather go for growth in a sustainable manner, which means having patience and giving MONster more time to mould a team.

To expect/demand a European push this season is for me frankly unrealistic.

[allani]

We have a squad now that should with a decent run of injuries, achieve a top 10 place. If not O'Neill is an idiot not the manager those advocating the slow approach are saying, is he.

O'Leary managed 6th and 10th with much the same men minus, some interesting new talent now stars in the squad, so why shouldn't we.

Malc - two points here:

(1) In DOLs first season almost everyone agreed that we had over-achieved and finished in a higher position than we should have done. Also some of our 'rivals' had nightmare seasons and got far fewer points than they should have done.

(2) Your argument conveniently overlooks the fact that although our squad is almost the same - most of the other teams competing for the top 10 have strengthened considerably. Everton, Portsmouth, Newcastle (although they continue to underachieve) and Spurs have all improved their squads considerably. And Bolton and Blackburn are both stronger too. And that ignores the fact that the top 4 have all invested significantly as well.

A top half finish this season would still be a major achievement unless the new Board initiate a multi-million pound team investment in Januray - when it may be harder to attract some targets who may at that stage still be involved in European competition at their current club.

[limpid]

(1) In DOLs first season almost everyone agreed that we had over-achieved and finished in a higher position than we should have done. Also some of our 'rivals' had nightmare seasons and got far fewer points than they should have done.

"everyone agreed"? Well that would be a first.

[Jon]

in fact, in terms of incoming players into the "first 11", we have not strengthened at all this season.

Incoming: Stan

Outgoing: Milner, CKP

in terms of purchases/outgoings, that appears to be the only "strengthening" we have been able to do.

To expect a european push on the basis of that is asking quite a lot, IMO.

DOL in his first full season had a full summer to assess the squad and bring in players of his choosing. MONster has not had the same benefit. But at the present time is doing a better job (at this stage of the season).

[Jon]

(1) In DOLs first season almost everyone agreed that we had over-achieved and finished in a higher position than we should have done. Also some of our 'rivals' had nightmare seasons and got far fewer points than they should have done.

"everyone agreed"? Well that would be a first.

you never get everyone agrreing on here Simon :winkold:

[BOF]

Clearly a wind-up article as it is trying to imply that the transformation from relegation fodder to European football is a matter of a couple of days, and anyone who has the audacity to 'settle' for a period of transition is merely perpetuating the 'jam tomorrow' theory. Quite apart from the fact that 'tomorrow' never came in Ellis' 'vision'. I find it impossible to believe that the poster does not accept there will be a period where everything must be sorted out from the previous regime from top to bottom.

On the off-chance that it is NOT a wind-up then the poster is deluded.

[John]

Malcolm, I think we now need to hold a place within touching distance of the top 6 or 7 in the hope that the players Martin is able to bring in during the next window will provide the extra quality and depth to our squad that will enable us to maintain a challenge for a place in Europe next season.

The previous chairman had thirty something years to show some ambition and the present board has already done more in 3 months to raise the profile of our club than he did in over 30 years. I would love us to challenge for a top 4 place sooner rather than later. But, the new manager and board face a big job and deserve sufficient time to do it. Whether by this time next season we are in a position to challenge for a Champions League spot or not, I'm confident that the hopes of this happening next season or the season after that are real and are something that would not have been realistic to hope for before the changes that were made at Villa Park this summer.

I have every confidence that with MO'N and our new board in place the glory days will return. It might not happen this season or even next, but it will happen. Let's look at the signings we are able to make over the next 3 transfer windows rather than those Martin needed to make in a short transfer window and those players he was able to bring in after it had closed. We now have men in charge who we can trust and I am happy to trust them to come through in a reasonable time frame.

[drat01]

For me its a fairly simple thing, January. We have seen over the past couple of weeks that the squad needs improvement in various areas, the enthusiasm factor of a new boss and new things is starting to wear off and injuries and suspensions will start to kick in. If MON is allowed to, and is able to bring in new faces then the impetus this will bring will be significant.

A couple of years back the sole signing of DJ2 was greeted like he was the messiah, but it did show the impact that new faces to club can bring. Expectation levels were talked about by the past manager and TBH he was right in that we as Villa fans do sometimes expect far too much based on what the manager has to work with. Under the new regime though things do seem to be a changing and for that the positive feel about nearly all aspects of the club does seem to be helping.

Bottom line we now seem to have the right mix in terms of manager & board. There are still a few gaps to be filled in but it looks good. How long before its the finished article? Who knows but at least now we have the builders in and they are working

[ianrobo1]

if you want to see the impact new signings can have look at what happened to Pompey once Redknapp got back in.

I am sure that MON has all the targets lined up and give the new ones half a season to bed in and whoever we buy in the summer, next season has to be a challenge for the top 6.

MON himself has stated he wants to aim for the very top so should we, it is just in the next 8 months or so where we have to patient.

[blandy]

A couple of years back the sole signing of DJ2 was greeted like he was the messiah

I agree with the rest, Ian (Drat) , but this! No way, Pedro. I thought and I know most others did that I spoke to at the time "who?" and "why?" and "it's not another midfield scuffler that we need" and other such rather negative thoughts. Similar to when GT signed Leonhardsen, basically - WTF!

sorry for going OT

[drat01]

Pete - Im sure if one of the kind mods could retrieve the threads that followed his arrival you will see the general upbeat mood of most of the posts about the fact we had signed a player, when at the time it appeared again that we were going to go through a transfer window without any new additions.

The point is more general though in that for a club like ours where new players are needed and that has been echoed by the current and past manager and the players, the impetus that they bring is major. Thats why personally I will be dissapointed if we say only signed one player in the window along the same lines of the DJ2 signing which smacked of appeasement for the manager and the fans of the time rather than for the benefit of the club.

The expectation levels of the fans is probably too high still, but then again thats what fans do.

[Jon]

Pete - Im sure if one of the kind Mods could retrieve the threads that followed his arrival you will see the general upbeat mood of most of the posts about the fact we had signed a player, when at the time it appeared again that we were going to go through a transfer window without any new additions.

.

indeed Ian.

the thread was resurrected on here the other day and the broad consensus was that most welcomed the addition of EDD.

Some even thought it was a great purchase :oops:

[Risso]

There's always excitement when signing players, it's just the novelty factor of having a new face around. Like last summer, all the headlines screamed "seven new players" when in reality we got a reserve keeper, an over the hill striker, a permanently injured left midfielder, a fat left back, a mediocre right back and some great tart who falls over a lot!

[ianrobo1]

only some people do Risso, let me remind you .....

[PB]

Boom and bust vs sustainable growth

Economically, in boom and bust, the people making the decisions get rich, and the rest of us suffer. In sustianable growth, everyone wins, just less so perhaps and over longer periods of time

You cant have a rapid boom without a bust. The two go together.

We have had years and years of boom and bust at Villa, except the booms have got quicker and quieter each time, and the busts more deep and protracted. The only person that won was Ellis, who walked out with £20m and left behind him a club that was by all definitions, bust. I would be very, very wary of growth that happened too quickly, as experience has shown us in every aspect of life what follows growth that exceeds the ability of the organisiation to consolidate

What Ellis failed to do was build on the booms. He couldnt, becasue he had no long term vision. the booms were as a result of him throwing all his eggs in one basket at the same time, leaving nothing for sustaining the momentum. Boom, bust. The three year cycle.

We asked Doug to produce a five year plan. Steady organic growth over 5 years, sustainable development

Doug always, always refused, always with one eye on the cash register for the next game. Short termism, lack of long term vision, boom and bust, the inevitable result

As I have said before, I hope that our current management isnt as short termist as malc is asking them to be, and as Doug always ever was