leviramsey Posted June 27, 2012 VT Supporter Share Posted June 27, 2012 Overall history Brazil Germany Italy Argentina France Spain Thats the definite order of the top 6. After that it is a bit harder to judge. Holland Portugal England Uruguay Denmark Sweden I think 12 is enough, I dont want to go any further then that. But I think in terms of achievements on the world stage, that is the order. Many will think England should be higher, but I dont think so. I'd agree with that. And being 7th in Europe would imply that regularly falling at the quarterfinals of the Euros is to be expected (as is the occasional pre-QF exit from the World Cup), especially depending on the gulf with the top 4. Looked at that way, I'm not sure one can say England has underperformed over the past few decades. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRS-T Posted June 27, 2012 Share Posted June 27, 2012 Germany 2010 was a bad day at the office (and poor officiating from the linesman/referee) But notice how Germany scored counter-attacking goals against us? That shows we were attacking them and had the ball. What was the difference against Italy? The manager. He told them to defend for the whole game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LondonLax Posted June 27, 2012 Share Posted June 27, 2012 England are in the second tier of International teams behind the big boys. England fans won't have it though because the domestic league is one of the best but that is because it has the biggest proportion of foreign players of any league, not because of the quality pool of England players themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leviramsey Posted June 27, 2012 VT Supporter Share Posted June 27, 2012 Also England do sometimes get drawn with the likes ofHolland Italy and Germany in world cup qualification. 1994, 1998 and 2002 qualifiers for a start To be fair they no longer do that. Those were the times, IIRC, when the Premier League still had just 3 CL spots. The domestic league has precisely nothing to do with the qualifying draws for the World Cup, though. Germany didn't have to qualify for USA 94, being the holders. 1998 (based on the 1995 FIFA World Rankings, i.e. based on a rather poor period for England) Pot 1: Germany, Spain, Italy, Russia, Norway, Denmark, Netherlands, Sweden Romania Pot 2: Bulgaria, Switzerland, Portugal, Czech Rep, England, Rep of Ireland, Scotland, Belgium, Greece 2002 (based on performance in the 1998 and 2000 qualifiers) Pot 1: Spain, Romania, Norway, Sweden, Netherlands, Czech Rep, Germany, Belgium, Yugoslavia Pot 2: Austria, Portugal, Italy, Scotland, England, Russia, Ukraine, Denmark, Turkey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voinjama Posted June 27, 2012 Author Share Posted June 27, 2012 England going out out of tournaments at the quarter final stage is not an underachievement, and nor is it an overachievement. It is exactly where England should be exiting tournaments based on the players they have in comparison to other teams and based on Englands general performances over the last 60 years. Secondlt TRS-T how can you put England as 'tier 1' on the same level as countries who have won the world cup 4 or 5 times. Or countries who have 3 world cups and 3 euros. Or countries who have the world and euro titles at the same time. They are currently and hstorically on a higher level. England are at the 2nd level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtsimonw Posted June 27, 2012 Share Posted June 27, 2012 I'd agree with that. And being 7th in Europe would imply that regularly falling at the quarterfinals of the Euros is to be expected (as is the occasional pre-QF exit from the World Cup), especially depending on the gulf with the top 4. Looked at that way, I'm not sure one can say England has underperformed over the past few decades. Agreed. I'm not sure why people go on about it so much. I am happy with a QF defeat or losing to a better nation, simply because there's no shame in losing to someone better. Yet after every QF so many people act like it's failure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
legov Posted June 27, 2012 Share Posted June 27, 2012 Also England do sometimes get drawn with the likes ofHolland Italy and Germany in world cup qualification. 1994, 1998 and 2002 qualifiers for a start To be fair they no longer do that. Those were the times, IIRC, when the Premier League still had just 3 CL spots. The domestic league has precisely nothing to do with the qualifying draws for the World Cup, though. I know, I was just saying it matter-of-factly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRS-T Posted June 27, 2012 Share Posted June 27, 2012 England are in the second tier of International teams behind the big boys. So why are we always in Pot 1 for qualification draws. If we were second tier we would be in Pot 2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AVFCforever1991 Posted June 27, 2012 Share Posted June 27, 2012 I'd agree with that. And being 7th in Europe would imply that regularly falling at the quarterfinals of the Euros is to be expected (as is the occasional pre-QF exit from the World Cup), especially depending on the gulf with the top 4. Looked at that way, I'm not sure one can say England has underperformed over the past few decades. Agreed. I'm not sure why people go on about it so much. I am happy with a QF defeat or losing to a better nation, simply because there's no shame in losing to someone better. Yet after every QF so many people act like it's failure. I think the way we played was a failure... Not really too bothered about the lose because Italy were the better team, but the way we got beat not a pretty thing to watch, the Italians had 31 shots total. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
legov Posted June 27, 2012 Share Posted June 27, 2012 England are in the second tier of International teams behind the big boys. So why are we always in Pot 1 for qualification draws. If we were second tier we would be in Pot 2. I see a pattern now. It's about where you draw the line between the 1st tier and the 2nd, ain't it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtsimonw Posted June 27, 2012 Share Posted June 27, 2012 I'll get a lot of stick for it, but I also think people are massively overrating Spain. I think Holland have been better all-time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRS-T Posted June 27, 2012 Share Posted June 27, 2012 Secondlt TRS-T how can you put England as 'tier 1' on the same level as countries who have won the world cup 4 or 5 times. Or countries who have 3 world cups and 3 euros. Or countries who have the world and euro titles at the same time. They are currently and hstorically on a higher level. England are at the 2nd level. Spain and France have only got 1 World Cup - the same as us. Like I said we are in the same group as them, but the bottom end of that group. In Europe there are 53 nations, we are like top 6. That has got to be tier 1 (or else how many tiers are you gonna have?) Worldwide there are 200+ nations, we are like top 10. Again that has got to be tier 1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leviramsey Posted June 27, 2012 VT Supporter Share Posted June 27, 2012 That said, the World Football Elo Ratings indicate that being drawn after 90 to Italy was a slight underperformance by England: June Italy 0 European Cup +6 1877 0 11 24 England 0 in Ukraine -6 1950 -1 5 (Italy took 6 rating points from England... an 1871 rating against a 1956 rating implies a roughly 5 to 3 chance of the 1956 team (England) winning vs. losing in regular time) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRS-T Posted June 27, 2012 Share Posted June 27, 2012 England are in the second tier of International teams behind the big boys. So why are we always in Pot 1 for qualification draws. If we were second tier we would be in Pot 2. I see a pattern now. It's about where you draw the line between the 1st tier and the 2nd, ain't it? Yes it's basically like: Brazil, Germany Italy, Argentina France, Spain England, Holland, Portugal ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Uruguay, Russia, Greece, Denmark, Sweden, Czech Republic, Japan, USA, Mexico, South Korea, Ivory Coast, Ghana, Egpyt etc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oaks Posted June 27, 2012 Share Posted June 27, 2012 Greece have won a major trophy this century and qualified for 4 of the last 5 tournaments. You cant just ignore those facts. You started this thread by quoting 100 years, so you're taking the piss here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oaks Posted June 27, 2012 Share Posted June 27, 2012 England are in the second tier of International teams behind the big boys. So why are we always in Pot 1 for qualification draws. If we were second tier we would be in Pot 2. I see a pattern now. It's about where you draw the line between the 1st tier and the 2nd, ain't it? Yes it's basically like: Brazil, Germany Italy, Argentina France, Spain England, Holland, Portugal ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Uruguay, Russia, Greece, Denmark, Sweden, Czech Republic, Japan, USA, Mexico, South Korea, Ivory Coast, Ghana, Egpyt etc And thats how i would rate where we are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voinjama Posted June 27, 2012 Author Share Posted June 27, 2012 Greece have won a major trophy this century and qualified for 4 of the last 5 tournaments. You cant just ignore those facts. You started this thread by quoting 100 years, so you're taking the piss here. What I said was that in nearly 100 years England have only won 1 world cup, and got to the semis in 3 other tournaments. Go and re read. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oaks Posted June 27, 2012 Share Posted June 27, 2012 Greece have won a major trophy this century and qualified for 4 of the last 5 tournaments. You cant just ignore those facts. You started this thread by quoting 100 years, so you're taking the piss here. What I said was that in nearly 100 years England have only won 1 world cup, and got to the semis in 3 other tournaments. Go and re read. And Greece have won one European championship and thats it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voinjama Posted June 27, 2012 Author Share Posted June 27, 2012 England are in the second tier of International teams behind the big boys. So why are we always in Pot 1 for qualification draws. If we were second tier we would be in Pot 2. I see a pattern now. It's about where you draw the line between the 1st tier and the 2nd, ain't it? Yes it's basically like: Brazil, Germany Italy, Argentina France, Spain England, Holland, Portugal ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Uruguay, Russia, Greece, Denmark, Sweden, Czech Republic, Japan, USA, Mexico, South Korea, Ivory Coast, Ghana, Egpyt etc We are almost in agreement. Holland have won the Euros before in 1988, so they have also won a major trophy. As well as losing in 3 world cup finals. And losing in another 4 semi finals. Sorry but they are above England. I would also put Uruguay up to Englands level. Other then that I agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AVFCforever1991 Posted June 27, 2012 Share Posted June 27, 2012 Yes it's basically like: Brazil, Germany Italy, Argentina France, Spain England, Holland, Portugal ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Uruguay, Russia, Greece, Denmark, Sweden, Czech Republic, Japan, USA, Mexico, South Korea, Ivory Coast, Ghana, Egpyt etc Yeah i'd say that was about right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts