Microsoft Surface

[CVByrne]

So Conor, it's both important that windows stays the same and that it changes? I think you might have fallen for the spin.

No I want it to be optimized for touch like an ipad but then optimized like windows when I attach a keyboard and mouse. understand?

the current tablets fail miserably when keyboards are attached.

[limpid]

Windows 8 is a completely different interface to anything you've seen before, with or without a keyboard. You said "We like windows, it's familiar and works the way we know. We grew up with it."

So it's changing completely but you need it to work the way you know. Do you see the dichotomy?

[CVByrne]

Yes but Microsoft know that people use a mouse and keyboard. This is windows coming to a tablet . Apple brought iOS to a tablet not OSX.

Do you understand? Surface will work optomised like a notebook when the keyboard is attached and work optomised like a tablet when it's not attached. It has a dual mode that is sorely lacking in apple and android offerings.

This is what appeals.

[MMFy]

Yes but Microsoft know that people use a mouse and keyboard. This is windows coming to a tablet . Apple brought iOS to a tablet not OSX.

Do you understand? Surface will work optomised like a notebook when the keyboard is attached and work optomised like a tablet when it's not attached. It has a dual mode that is sorely lacking in apple and android offerings.

This is what appeals.

Not wishing to sound like a heathen, but how can you be so sure this OS will work so well on both hardware formats when it you have not used it extensively on both hardware formats?

[CVByrne]

I have no idea. but it is what they are pushing. their keyboard for a start looks different class to its rivals

[limpid]

Yes but Microsoft know that people use a mouse and keyboard. This is windows coming to a tablet . Apple brought iOS to a tablet not OSX.

Do you understand? Surface will work optomised like a notebook when the keyboard is attached and work optomised like a tablet when it's not attached. It has a dual mode that is sorely lacking in apple and android offerings.

This is what appeals.

So it will be completely different to the current windows which you want to stick with because "We like windows, it's familiar and works the way we know. We grew up with it."

I completely understand that Microsoft will find a compromise somewhere between a tablet interface and a workstation interface. Their track record makes me think it'll be several releases before it works properly for either and is unlikely to live up to their promise.

However, it will NOT be the windows interface that works the way you know, so you can't use that as a justification. And if you're going to change, you might as well look at all options.

BTW Android is Linux. People have already demonstrated Android devices which convert into a Linux desktop when a keyboard and screen are attached. None of this is new. A few seconds searching found http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=66S8is1E9MI. Or if you've rooted your device, you can just install ubuntu as an app.

[darrenm]

The app situation on iOS is clearly superior, the iPhone is easier to write code for and easier to make money from so the most talented app developers go there first.

Android is hardly a barren wasteland though so that might not bother people too much.

I don't think it's clearly superior any more. Most new big apps seem to come out either Android first, or dual-launch. I can't think of anything which is iOS only which isn't made by Apple.

iOS is actually a lot harder to develop for. Android is quite simple. iOS requires you to know objective C which isn't the simplest thing in the world. Android requires Java knowledge which is a lot easier and more common.

The easier to make money thing seems to be a myth propagated by the traditionally iOS-only developers. I think if you took the most popular paid-for apps from both platforms and compared the profits there wouldn't be a lot in it.

[CVByrne]

As I said, it will be optomised for keyboard and mouse when they are connected and optomised for touch when they are connected . Neither of the rivals do this. Asus' horrendous transformer tablet being case in point.

[blandy]

...

Samsung have been studiously copying Apple products for a while now...

... Blandy. Such a daft comment re Samsung.

Companies copy other company's stuff all the time. It's the way of the world.

here

and and here

and another or another and so on

It's in some ways a good thing, to an extent, in that the best design gets widely mimicked so we all get better kit. If Apple copies a neat Samsung design, then people who buy apple stuff get a better thing, and so on.

Microsoft and the surface device have come up with something new and different, and if it catches on, others will follow it. If it doesn't, they won't.

I don't own shares in any of them, and am not exactly surrounded with gadgets, but the ones I do have are either neat originals, or mimic the form of something done elsewhere first - whether it be kettles or TV or laptop etc.

To deny it happens is flying in the face of a huge well of evidence.

[limpid]

As I said, it will be optomised for keyboard and mouse when they are connected and optomised for touch when they are connected . Neither of the rivals do this. Asus' horrendous transformer tablet being case in point.

Did you look at either of my links? Neither were related to anything by Asus. The first did show something that does precisely this, however it is different to Surface in that it exists already.

Are you withdrawing your previous statement about sticking with windows because it "works the way you know"?

[limpid]

Companies copy other company's stuff all the time. It's the way of the world.

I think Conor was responding to your "clearly superior" comment. Apple's strategy is embrace and enhance, it's strange to see them throw their toys out when it happens to them.

And now the MacBook Air ad which claims "innovation" for finally getting a higher screen resolution than my 7 year old Dell.

Microsoft and the surface device have come up with something new and different, and if it catches on, others will follow it. If it doesn't, they won't.

Except it's not new as per my link above.

[darrenm]

...

Samsung have been studiously copying Apple products for a while now...

... Blandy. Such a daft comment re Samsung.

Companies copy other company's stuff all the time. It's the way of the world.

here

and and here

and another or another and so on

It's in some ways a good thing, to an extent, in that the best design gets widely mimicked so we all get better kit. If Apple copies a neat Samsung design, then people who buy apple stuff get a better thing, and so on.

Microsoft and the surface device have come up with something new and different, and if it catches on, others will follow it. If it doesn't, they won't.

I don't own shares in any of them, and am not exactly surrounded with gadgets, but the ones I do have are either neat originals, or mimic the form of something done elsewhere first - whether it be kettles or TV or laptop etc.

To deny it happens is flying in the face of a huge well of evidence.

I think you quoted the wrong bit of your original post. What you said was:

Samsung have been studiously copying Apple products for a while now, without making anything notably better or even as good,

Samsung have copied some Apple things. To their detriment in my opinion. They copied the single home button under the screen and the look of Touchwiz has some elements borrowed from iOS. I think they would have been better doing neither, but they obviously felt it would allow people to move from iOS easier. The bit I wholeheartedly disagree with is where you say without making anything notably better or even as good. I assert that from a purely objective viewpoint, the Samsung Galaxy S, Nexus S, Galaxy SII, Galaxy Nexus and Galaxy SIII have been better at launch than any Apple device. The hardware is always better, Android against iOS is always open for debate, especially with manufacturer customisations such as Touchwiz taken into account, but Android is undeniably fuller featured than iOS. Every release of iOS copies features off Android so the accusation that Samsung copies Apple could very well be reversed to Apple copies Google, with lots of evidence to support that argument.

Unfortunately you're wrong again with this bit:

Microsoft and the surface device have come up with something new and different

They really haven't. It's been banded around for a while and Canonical (Ubuntu) have gone even further. The video that limpid posted shows Ubuntu operating in combination with Android inside a phone. Everyone carries a phone around with them, not many people carry a tablet around. If everyone could plonk their phone into a dock on their desk and have a full desktop, then take it away with them on the evening using it as their normal phone again, it's the perfect use scenario for many people. Having to carry a tablet around to gain the same functionality misses the point which Canonical and Ubuntu have been pushing. You may as well have a laptop, or a netbook, which is hassle, and is *another* device. Once again Microsoft miss the point, put their eggs in the wrong basket and become more and more irrelevant to anyone outside of an active directory domain.

[The_Rev]

The app situation on iOS is clearly superior, the iPhone is easier to write code for and easier to make money from so the most talented app developers go there first.

Android is hardly a barren wasteland though so that might not bother people too much.

I don't think it's clearly superior any more. Most new big apps seem to come out either Android first, or dual-launch. I can't think of anything which is iOS only which isn't made by Apple.

iOS is actually a lot harder to develop for. Android is quite simple. iOS requires you to know objective C which isn't the simplest thing in the world. Android requires Java knowledge which is a lot easier and more common.

The easier to make money thing seems to be a myth propagated by the traditionally iOS-only developers. I think if you took the most popular paid-for apps from both platforms and compared the profits there wouldn't be a lot in it.

I think we will agree to disagree here. Android suffers massively from fragmentation, whether its hardware specs or versions of Android (do you code for 2.2? 2.3? 4.0?) whereas iOS is much more simple as the variables are so much smaller. Maybe I'm just tuned into the wrong channels or something but iOS is miles ahead for games (and as I said, you may care less about this than I do) and the current hotness Cinemagram is still waiting on an Android conversion. I'm not calling Android shit, I have been a very happy Android user for almost three years but the App ecosystem is an advantage iOS holds. In my opinion at least.

[blandy]

..Samsung have copied some Apple things. To their detriment in my opinion. ....I assert that from a purely objective viewpoint, the Samsung Galaxy S, Nexus S, Galaxy SII, Galaxy Nexus and Galaxy SIII have been better at launch than any Apple device...

If your view really is purely objective, then we're coming from different places. My view is subjective. The links I put up are probably, in some cases, also subjective, but it's hard if not impossible to argue against the copying of design by Samsung. Like I said, personally I have no problem with it. It just seems basic and clear that it's happened.

If you think one phone or device is better than another, purely objectively, then that's fine by me.

Personally I use stuff subjectively. I'm not particularly brand conscious, or loyal. I've used Apple and other makes gadgets, and I subjectively like the Apple stuff, in part no doubt because I'm used to it, in part because I appreciate the good design of it and can also see where it has flaws for example the last OSX software system was (albeit at low cost) not any better than the one before, other than a bit of candy and some cloud things that work a bit better. I went back to the previous version, in the end.

But as this is supposed to be about Surface thingummies, I'm off topic. To me, it looks like a "new" thing, but I accept that similar things have been apparently available in niche areas, with little take-up. I don't really care, tbh. I won't buy one. I'm not much taken with microsoft software, but some of it is good. If Windows 7 or 8 are liked then great. Same with Linux, or Android or whatever.

[TheDon]

So Conor, it's both important that windows stays the same and that it changes? I think you might have fallen for the spin.

No I want it to be optimized for touch like an ipad but then optimized like windows when I attach a keyboard and mouse. understand?

the current tablets fail miserably when keyboards are attached.

Except the fatal flaw here is windows 8 IS NOT "optimized like windows" when it's used with a keyboard and mouse.

It becomes a touchscreen interface that gets navigated by a keyboard and mouse.

It might me an absolutely amazing tablet os, but I'll tell you what it's not, it's not a decent desktop OS. And that point means your entire argument falls down.

[darrenm]

The app situation on iOS is clearly superior, the iPhone is easier to write code for and easier to make money from so the most talented app developers go there first.

Android is hardly a barren wasteland though so that might not bother people too much.

I don't think it's clearly superior any more. Most new big apps seem to come out either Android first, or dual-launch. I can't think of anything which is iOS only which isn't made by Apple.

iOS is actually a lot harder to develop for. Android is quite simple. iOS requires you to know objective C which isn't the simplest thing in the world. Android requires Java knowledge which is a lot easier and more common.

The easier to make money thing seems to be a myth propagated by the traditionally iOS-only developers. I think if you took the most popular paid-for apps from both platforms and compared the profits there wouldn't be a lot in it.

I think we will agree to disagree here. Android suffers massively from fragmentation, whether its hardware specs or versions of Android (do you code for 2.2? 2.3? 4.0?) whereas iOS is much more simple as the variables are so much smaller. Maybe I'm just tuned into the wrong channels or something but iOS is miles ahead for games (and as I said, you may care less about this than I do) and the current hotness Cinemagram is still waiting on an Android conversion. I'm not calling Android shit, I have been a very happy Android user for almost three years but the App ecosystem is an advantage iOS holds. In my opinion at least.

This reminds me a bit of the Sky advert for Sky Go actually. They state that it's available on iPhone, iPad, PC, and selected Android devices. So it's available on an iPhone 2G running iOS 2 is it? Actually no I've just looked and it requires iOS 4.3 or above. So there are actually loads of combinations of hardware and OS which it won't work on, but Sky are perfectly happy to just say iPhone, but selected Android phones. This shows just how in the dark they are because they have a mainly iOS focussed development team giving them information. They have the iOS dev team because they needed them for when it was the most popular platform.

The fragmentation on Android is no worse than iPhone/iOS. Certain things require a certain level of software/hardware. You code around it. In answer to what you code for on Android, it's a simple answer; just code for the minimum version you can get away with. If you need functionality which is only available in Gingerbread, code for 2.3. It won't show up for Froyo and lower users so it's nice and simple. Every platform is the same in this respect, even iOS. It's not fragmentation, it's capitalism.

For the game thing, I'd probably agree with you that due to the direct graphics hardware access iOS has had since the start, it's still ahead in that respect. Google introduced some better APIs with Froyo (IIRC) which brought the ability to code games pretty much level with iOS. Any disparity now is down to the prejudices and hangover of development skills. Although I have seen loads of new high-quality games coming onto Android recently, admittedly mostly through Gameloft.

[CVByrne]

Blandy, what isn't subjective is the fact Samsungs hardware is superior to Apples. The Galaxy S2 had superior processor, superior screen tech etc. than the iPhone 4S which came out half a year later.

Also back on Windows Surface. I'm pretty sure I'd prefer microsoft trying to take a desktop OS and make it work on a tablet, with it's keyboard and touchpad a key selling point from the start than I do with Apple and Google porting a phone OS to a bigger screen.

I have had an Asus Transformer, it now resides under my bed a disgarded piece of junk less than a year since it was purchased. Why? It utterly failed to make a keyboard work with Android. While a touchscreen tablet on its own is fairly useless for most things bar portability and ease of use on the move.

[CVByrne]

I think we will agree to disagree here. Android suffers massively from fragmentation, whether its hardware specs or versions of Android (do you code for 2.2? 2.3? 4.0?) whereas iOS is much more simple as the variables are so much smaller. Maybe I'm just tuned into the wrong channels or something but iOS is miles ahead for games (and as I said, you may care less about this than I do) and the current hotness Cinemagram is still waiting on an Android conversion. I'm not calling Android shit, I have been a very happy Android user for almost three years but the App ecosystem is an advantage iOS holds. In my opinion at least.

Fragmentation gets too big a mention. It's not good because there are so many budget handsets etc.. on Android. But we compare Apples iPhone to only 2 handsets the top of the line HTC and Samsung ones which run everything and suffer zero problems from fragmentation. The Galaxy S2 is happily running Android 4.0 as is the two Nexus handsets and the Sensation.

Fragmentation and the problems Android suffers from only effect the people who opt for budget handsets or hold onto their phones for 2 years + like say a Desire. The Nexus S for example will be up to date for longer than 2 years I'd imagine.

Then you mention games, I put it to you, is it better to try play games on a tiny 3.5 inch screen or a 4.3 or 4.8 inch screen?

I intend to try Windows Phone next, just to try something else for a change. I'll either like it or come to the realisation that Android is the best OS. It is without a shadow of a doubt the land of cutting edge hardware a role it has had for awhile now.

I honestly have no problem with Apple itself, just the mere thought of not being able to just drag and drop an avi file onto my phone to watch it is too insurmountable for me. iTunes is just an impossible obsticale for me.

[The_Rev]

Then you mention games, I put it to you, is it better to try play games on a tiny 3.5 inch screen or a 4.3 or 4.8 inch screen?

Straw man argument. It is better to play games on the system with the best games and that is clearly iOS.

[CVByrne]

So read the Engadget review of the surface. I like what I'm reading. Software has a few links to iron out which is understandable as it's new software. Remember android in 2010? Anyway, the other weakness is of course lack of apps. Again for me, don't care in the slightest. I have 2 pieces of software installed on my Samsung Series 9 and one is VLC player which is just my proffered player.

So what Microsoft have done is give me office, a keyboard, a usb port to plug my mouse and a kickstand in a stunning looking device that weighs as much as an ipad and lasts as long. Plus the multitasking implementation is excellent, to run two apps side by side is something I do on my laptop and it's useful.

I look forward to testing it out for myself to see if a tablet computer really is any use to me, or is a small cheap media player tablet alongside an ultrabook the way to go.