All-Purpose Religion Thread

[GarethRDR]

Yeah come to think of it, where's he gone?

He's busy constructing an ark-themed float for a lesbian pride parade.

[mjmooney]

:shock: When?

Arrrgh, I have never been an observant person.

It was in that last religion thread - he was coming out with some seriously homophobic stuff.

Let's not let this one go the same way folks.

[hogso]

What football team do you think god supports

[hogso]

tbh I bet he's more of a rugby man

[snowychap]

Slap a beret on him and that's Monet.

[mjmooney]

Seriously, there's something I WOULD like to discuss with a believer (any religion will do).

There seem to be lots of different strands to being a member of a given faith. Taken in isolation, any one of them I can just about understand.

For example, the old "Something must have started the big bang" thing. OK, it can be debated, but nobody REALLY 'knows', and I can see how the idea of a sentient creator might have some appeal to some people. Fair enough.

Then there's 'The churches do valuable humanitarian/charity work, and provide moral guidance and comfort in times of emotional distress'. True. And highly laudable (I suppose).

And... 'My church is a friendly community/social bond'. OK, fine.

And lots of others on those lines.

What I don't see is how or why any of those fit together with the theological dogma. Why should one lead to another?

Because it seems that you pretty much have to buy into the whole package. You can't just sign up for the above ideas, you have 'worship' this invisible friend. You have to (at least pretend to) believe that the wafer turns into God's flesh, or that the Koran was dictated to Muhammad, or that eating pork is sinful, or that chanting Gouranga will make you one with the universe. All patently nonsense.

How can they ever hope to convince any intelligent person to take them seriously?

[Rodders]

good thread. A repository for everything from amusing pics/quotes/depressing facebook status' to a place to have philosophical discussion about life the universe and everything.

Plenty of scope then 8)

I will say though I have far more leniency towards a belief in a god, a higher power in an abstract sense. Whilst I may disagree there will always be room for speculation on that behalf, but it can never really go beyond a deistic standpoint. I do often consider the spiritual possibilities in spite of my preference for science.

I can't tolerate religion though, its a malevolent power-structure that thrives and encourages division and violence. There can be no peace in a world of dogmatic philosophy, where the construction and deification of texts provides platforms for the most repugnant power crazy lunatics to take other people hostage. Institutions that demand conformity and condemn alternatives - how on earth can that ever serve humanity successfully? It's ludicrous. Where the sanctity of some poetic scribes from a bygone age is given credence over the developed and developing minds of the present? Lunacy. That insults, scientific inquiry and skepticism by beginning investigation with flawed absolute presuppositions?! No. It cannot work to value a " chosen" path, especially in our ever increasing pluralistic world and open exchange of ideas. The goodness of say a jesus, is fine, but its basic decency found in many other philosophies and histories and stories - embrace the multiplicity, the diverse forms of myth-making and accept them for what they are, reflections of morals and values for particular points in space and time in various civilisations - and they evolve, they progress, one learns to discard the bullshit and keep the healthy. But religion proscribes this - and by a rigid fixity on the archaic, facilitates the maintenance of some very outdated offensive viewpoints to the exclusion and persecution of large groups of peoples.

"only a minority" is often the rebuttal to claims of hostility, but given the extent of its influence on our history and lives I would suggest that is poppycock and those of a moderate nature who don't condemn the vile elements within them are an ethically complicit party to the abuse inflicted on others. Religion capitalises on the insecurities and fears of those seeking safe and easy refuge. That one may have, through cultural allegiances have found an answer in christianity, islam, judaism, hinduism etc is pure chance and surely that in itself should seek some to question the "uniqueness" of their group?

study one religion, and you become a believer, study two, and you'll be a cynic - to quote from some bugger.

[Rodders]

Re: the social community thing, I think that is clearly the biggest factor in its success - people seek unity and, generally, are social creatures. People in communities live longer than those alone, is something I heard cited somewhere, can't link to it, but it rings true to me.

All the more pity then, that there is such an emphasis on narrow dogma and interpretation. In all seriousness, churches would be great if they removed all focus on the sanctity of god and the need for specificity to a creed. Some might say that's the point of them, but nah, communities would do better to remove the alienating factors such as "believe in Jesus / mohammed" and instead go, "yo, people of X, we all generally prefer being nice to being hostile, lets group together and have an intelligent chinwag on all things related to life, free from any constraints!"

[legov]

People in communities live longer than those alone, is something I heard cited somewhere, can't link to it, but it rings true to me.

Read it in A General Theory of Love

A very convoluted piece of writing, but quite persuasive in parts imo.

On another note, take a look at this sketch of a human brain juxtaposed with elephant and whale ones.

How someone can believe in a separate creation of humankind when there are so many obvious anatomical similarities between humans and other animals, without suffering from a feeling of cognitive dissonance, is beyond me.

[mjmooney]

Re: the social community thing, I think that is clearly the biggest factor in its success - people seek unity and, generally, are social creatures. People in communities live longer than those alone, is something I heard cited somewhere, can't link to it, but it rings true to me.

All the more pity then, that there is such an emphasis on narrow dogma and interpretation. In all seriousness, churches would be great if they removed all focus on the sanctity of god and the need for specificity to a creed. Some might say that's the point of them, but nah, communities would do better to remove the alienating factors such as "believe in Jesus / mohammed" and instead go, "yo, people of X, we all generally prefer being nice to being hostile, lets group together and have an intelligent chinwag on all things related to life, free from any constraints!"

Yes, that's exactly what I was getting at .

All the religions claim that their central message is "Let's be nice to each other", but in practice they seems far more interested in the differences in their respective absurd dogmas - even to the point of infinitely subdividing their own religions down into sects and sub-sects, which will argue amongst themselves, up to and including the level of mass killing. Ironic, or what?

[Rodders]

Just proves its all about power and influence sadly.

[mjmooney]

There's a woman at our running club, very nice, practicing Christian, in fact married to a vicar. I've met him socially a few times, and he's a decent guy. I would love to debate this sort of thing with him, but I fear I can't without sounding insulting and showing the dreaded "lack of respect", due to my considering his entire belief system a complete joke.

Which is kind of where I came in above - the guy is in fact the Anglican chaplain at Leeds Uni, and I know he does a lot of good pastoral work with young people who need support. I admire that, but it all breaks down for me when it gets to the stuff about Jesus rising from the dead, the rabbiting of prayers, the hymn singing, etc. It all just seems plain barmy, and I'd like to be able to say that without giving offence.

[Stevo985]

Pointless religion thread #72984729992109 on VT. In the entire history of the known universe, nothing has ever been accomplished and nobody has ever changed their mind on anything as a result of online discussion regarding religion. This thread will go one of three ways:

snip

So just like every other thread then? Especially match threads.

Just what I was going to say. This thread is no more, or less, futile than most.

It's a subject that comes up now and then in other threads, and somebody always complains (Stevo985, Father O'Fiddler has been informed - 20 Hail Marys and pants down for you, my boy). Hence this thread, which can be taken to supersede all other religion threads, and act as a catch-all for theologically-related debates.

And if we get a load of complaints in here, I'm going into the golf and wrestling threads with guns blazing...

No complaints from me about a religion thread. In fact I approve so that I can avoid it.

My complaint is that when it come sup in other threads, that whoel thread usually gets completely derailed until it becomes unreadable because it's just 2 people going back and forth, off topic. Or it gets locked.

Either way it's usually ruined.

So knock yourself out in here.

Oh, and Father O'Fiddler is on holiday, so it was probably his deputy, Canon M. O'Lester that you spoke to

[mjmooney]

Off you toddle, then...

[BOF]

My opinion is that the dogma is the small print in the contract, because it could never be the main selling point. Particularly in modern society where a lot of earlier suppositions have been rubbished by science. It is the offer of 'community', guidance on the 'right way to live' and the comforting notion of an afterlife for deceased loved ones that appeals to most, it just happens that you have to accept (or at least pretend to accept) the other bits in order to avail of the more appealing elements of religion.

The fact is that community and the right way to live is a personal choice available to everyone. It doesn't need any dogma. I live 'right'. I'm an atheist and I'm very conscientious. I don't need an imaginary person watching over me to ensure I 'do unto others as I would have done unto me'. I think that's basic common decency. I have community where I live and I have enough friends and relatives for any 'support' that I may or may not need. As for the need to believe in an afterlife, well, again, that's something I don't need to believe in. When you're gone you're gone. Wanting it to be true i.e. subscribing to a religion, doesn't make it any more true or any more likely. It is what it is.

[mjmooney]

Well that's my stance exactly, Bri.

But I would like to hear a religionist try and explain it to me. Preferably without recourse to "God speaking to them" and "Being filled with the Holy Spirit".

EDIT: Out of interest, how does being an atheist sit in Ireland at the moment? Do you have any trouble with Catholic family members giving you stick?

[legov]

it all breaks down for me when it gets to the stuff about Jesus rising from the dead, the rabbiting of prayers, the hymn singing, etc. It all just seems plain barmy, and I'd like to be able to say that without giving offence.

"If someone told you that his teacher had risen from the dead, what would you think?"

"If someone on the street came up to you and said 'I'm God/Jesus incarnate,' and promptly goes on to walk on water, turn water into wine, and heal some (ostensibly) sick homeless people, what would you think?"

Staying away from long-drawn debates and telling a few succinct but tactfully worded lines every now and then to get his mind thinking might be a good idea. In order to seem fair, show that you're open-minded by allowing him to do the same to you as well (while resisting the temptation to rebut his arguments!)

That's all in theory anyway.....I've never successfully deconverted anyone (not that I've tried very often!)

[BOF]

EDIT: Out of interest, how does being an atheist sit in Ireland at the moment? Do you have any trouble with Catholic family members giving you stick?

None at all. The everyday Ireland that we all live in is very modern in it's ideas. The perception of Ireland; probably moreso abroad; is maybe a little off-the-mark. If anything, the fact that we had religion rammed down our throats as youngsters (lol, pun definitely intended) has perhaps hardened our stance against it as adults.

[GarethRDR]

The perception of Ireland; probably moreso abroad; is maybe a little off-the-mark.

Wait, so 'Darby O'Gill and the Little People' has lied to me?! :shock:

[blandy]

Just proves its all about power and influence sadly.

aka "It's nothing more than an ontological fallacy perpetuated to subjugate the underclass into obedience"