Who do you want to replace Capello as England manager?

[mjmooney]

Having said that I'd rather qualify for a tournament with a foreign manager than not qualify under Steve McClaren. Voted for Woy Hodgson.

I would rather fail with an Englishman in charge than succeed with a foreigner in charge.

If we won the World Cup with a foreign manager it wouldn't feel right.

Exactly this.

[Rino8]

Phil Brown or Mick McCarthy. Anybody else is just settling.

[maqroll]

Howard Wilkinson

[johnsonp]

What a worrying list. McCarthy, Bruce, Allardyce, Warnock, Pearce ...deary me.

Redknapp probably deserves to get it or a foreign manager.

That was my thought, it is a pretty uninspiring list.

[Chindie]

As ever, nationality is meaningless in many things but especially football.

As for who the next England manager is, meh. Someone good'll do.

How can nationality be meaningless in international football? :?

Because we don't really 'do' international football. Look at the German 'national' team. They have a Brazilian playing for them, some Poles (one of which were we actually really doing international properly possibly wouldn't even play for Poland, he'd likely play for a nation that doesn't have a state, Silesia), and so on.

The idea of nations, the real idea, not what people think 'nation' means, is so utterly dumb that it's meaningless at it's heart. Football's idea of nations then takes it even further, because it waters down what it considers one's 'nation' to an absurd degree. It lets you hop around what you consider your nation to be, based on something that actually doesn't impact much on what actually is ones nation (they allow a citizen of a state to represent that state - theres a difference between being a state citizen and nationality), and then say that once you've represented a 'nation' you can no longer change your mind.

What football does is closer to interstate football... but then they don't allow you to change your mind once you've decided in a sop to 'nationality', which if you were doing interstate football properly would not happen.

It's meaningless.

[The_Steve]

As ever, nationality is meaningless in many things but especially football.

As for who the next England manager is, meh. Someone good'll do.

How can nationality be meaningless in international football? :?

Because we don't really 'do' international football. Look at the German 'national' team. They have a Brazilian playing for them, some Poles (one of which were we actually really doing international properly possibly wouldn't even play for Poland, he'd likely play for a nation that doesn't have a state, Silesia), and so on.

Klose's father was German, Poldolski has lived in Germany since he was 2 and had right of return status because of the part of Poland he was born in. Cacau is perfectly entitled to play for Germany after living there for 8 years and having a German passport.

The fundamental flaw is for too long England have relied on the same bunch of players and haven't integrated a great deal of younger players into the national setup. Germany are a wonderful example of mixing a lot youth with experience. Too often managers have tried the old Gerrard/Lampard routine, picked players on reputation despite promising otherwise.

We aren't as good technically as other nations, our youth system isn't as great as some. Regarding who will be England manager, their nationality is irrelevant. I want a manager who won't repeat the mistakes of old and gives us a fresh young side with a few old hands like Parker.

[Chindie]

Klose's father was German, Poldolski has lived in Germany since he was 2 and had right of return status because of the part of Poland he was born in. Cacau is perfectly entitled to play for Germany after living there for 8 years and having a German passport.

You seem to have missed my point somewhat (I've never been that bothered by Klose, incidentally). Cacau, is a German citizen, indeed, and thus under current rules he would be allowed to play for Germany.

But that undermines calling it 'international'. Citizen =/= nationality, state does not necessarily mean nation... Cacau would not, under the proper consideration of what a nation really is, be a member of the German nation (although Germany itself suffers when you start to consider 'nationality' properly, because a great number of German nationals don't identify with 'Germany', they identify as Bavarian, Saxon, etc etc. But put that by the by for a moment). Nations are imagined communities, united by common myths and legends, 'ethnosymbolism', some hint of primordial connections (which is rubbish, but appeals to the ideology regardless). Cacau has none of that - he's of the Brazilian nation, but a German citizen.

Unless you want to say that Cacau can choose what nation he is part of, without being what would traditionally be considered that nation. In which case, I'm now Spanish thanks, and really proud of that World Cup . Which in turn in my opinion just points out how pointless the whole idea is - It's dumb.

Hopefully that reveals what I mean when I say that nationality in football is an absurdity, perhaps more so than in any other capacity.

[HongKongVillan]

Alex McLeish.

Please! just needed to sort out compensation and I think he is ready made for England

[legov]

Unless you want to say that Cacau can choose what nation he is part of, without being what would traditionally be considered that nation. In which case, I'm now Spanish thanks, and really proud of that World Cup . Which in turn in my opinion just points out how pointless the whole idea is - It's dumb.

So if someone were to emigrate to the US from say, Britain, and then gives up his British citizenship for an American one, he can't be considered American? Of course people can choose which nation they belong to, it isn't about where you're born it's about where your heart lies.

[Mantis]

Alex McLeish.

Please! just needed to sort out compensation and I think he is ready made for England

Compensation? What, you think somebody would be stupid enough to pay money for him?

Oh wait...

:cry:

[Chindie]

Unless you want to say that Cacau can choose what nation he is part of, without being what would traditionally be considered that nation. In which case, I'm now Spanish thanks, and really proud of that World Cup . Which in turn in my opinion just points out how pointless the whole idea is - It's dumb.

So if someone were to emigrate to the US from say, Britain, and then gives up his British citizenship for an American one, he can't be considered American? Of course people can choose which nation they belong to, it isn't about where you're born it's about where your heart lies.

State is not necessarily nation.

Citizenship is not nationality.

America is interesting as it's 'myth' is one of 'E pluribus unum', out of many, one.

Nationality being a choice simply reinforces it's meaninglessness. As said, if that's how arbitrary it is, I'm now Spanish. Fed of up of Singapore? Choose to be American, dude.

[Rodders]

there's so many ways of defining what nationalism and nationhood means to an individual that its harsh to arbitrarily dismiss a persons choice - sure some no doubt have self interest at heart and don't care enough, but whilst there are criteria for what it means for players it should also apply to managers too. The ins and outs of those criteria are irrelevant, the essentials are that here are a set of conditions by which we are defining the parameters of competing and that should apply to managers too imo. If Fabio gets citizenship then it counts. That it may be a bit absurd in some respects, one cant really develop official limits based on cultural ties either.

[legov]

Unless you want to say that Cacau can choose what nation he is part of, without being what would traditionally be considered that nation. In which case, I'm now Spanish thanks, and really proud of that World Cup . Which in turn in my opinion just points out how pointless the whole idea is - It's dumb.

So if someone were to emigrate to the US from say, Britain, and then gives up his British citizenship for an American one, he can't be considered American? Of course people can choose which nation they belong to, it isn't about where you're born it's about where your heart lies.

State is not necessarily nation.

Citizenship is not nationality.

America is interesting as it's 'myth' is one of 'E pluribus unum', out of many, one.

Nationality being a choice simply reinforces it's meaninglessness. As said, if that's how arbitrary it is, I'm now Spanish. Fed of up of Singapore? Choose to be American, dude.

As I said, it's about the place the player feels he belongs to. I don't see how this choice translates into meaninglessness. It's like choosing a career - the fact that you have a choice doesn't mean that there's a dearth of emotional impact, or that the choice was made casually or arbitrarily.

Maybe you're just not emotionally very invested in any country, and can't bother about all this nationalism shit. If so, fine by me, that's your prerogative. But your indifference isn't shared by a lot of people.

[sellbydate]

Klose's father was German, Poldolski has lived in Germany since he was 2 and had right of return status because of the part of Poland he was born in. Cacau is perfectly entitled to play for Germany after living there for 8 years and having a German passport.

You seem to have missed my point somewhat (I've never been that bothered by Klose, incidentally). Cacau, is a German citizen, indeed, and thus under current rules he would be allowed to play for Germany.

But that undermines calling it 'international'. Citizen =/= nationality, state does not necessarily mean nation... Cacau would not, under the proper consideration of what a nation really is, be a member of the German nation (although Germany itself suffers when you start to consider 'nationality' properly, because a great number of German nationals don't identify with 'Germany', they identify as Bavarian, Saxon, etc etc. But put that by the by for a moment). Nations are imagined communities, united by common myths and legends, 'ethnosymbolism', some hint of primordial connections (which is rubbish, but appeals to the ideology regardless). Cacau has none of that - he's of the Brazilian nation, but a German citizen.

Unless you want to say that Cacau can choose what nation he is part of, without being what would traditionally be considered that nation. In which case, I'm now Spanish thanks, and really proud of that World Cup . Which in turn in my opinion just points out how pointless the whole idea is - It's dumb.

Hopefully that reveals what I mean when I say that nationality in football is an absurdity, perhaps more so than in any other capacity.

this just undermines your entire argument - we're aware that that is a lie and you don't really feel spanish. if you actually did, then fair enough, celebrate as you wish. but you don't, so it doesn't point out how pointless the whole idea is at all, as these players are not claiming nationality on a whim for sake of an argument, but for the purpose of doing their best for the country they feel they belong.

[Chindie]

My flippant point isn't exactly the linchpin of my argument, but whatever, I don't actually care about nations, as my argument my dictate how pointless they are. Noone ever agrees

[Bazdavies79]

I don't really get the argument; you play for the country you feel and have some affiliation to, and that's international football.

[NowDoINotLikeThat]

If you are going to bother with international football per say.

Well then rightly or wrongly it should probably have a manager from that nation.

Nevermind England - Importing foreign managers at international level is actually detrimental to lot of developing football nations.

Did Ivory Coast for example REALLY need to sack their own manager who'd done the hard work in qualifying for the world cup in 2010 just to blow a load on Sven for a few weeks ???

No.

Is it right that whatever nation has more buck can call up Gus Hiddinck whenever ?

In terms of international football as a sport - think the answer is pretty much no.

[legov]

Nevermind England - Importing foreign managers at international level is actually detrimental to lot of developing football nations.

Now this is mostly conjecture but - in theory, foreign managers can impart valuable knowledge of European tactics to these developing football nations, as well as set up training infrastructure where again, knowledge of European football is crucial.

I see this happening in the East Asian countries tbh - Nakata aside, both Korea and Japan were made up mostly of unknowns ten, 15 years ago. Now, however, we start to see the proliferation of skillful talent from these countries. As evidenced by both countries making it to the round of 16 at the 2010 World Cup, I think it's fair to say that football in East Asia (China aside) has made substantial strides forward. I suspect that we owe the foreign managers Japan and Korea used to hire for this - it's worth noting that both countries have now moved on in a sense and hired local Japanese/Korean coaches as well.

[TRS-T]

Naturalised citizens should be banned in international sport.

Cacau is not German.

He is just a Brazilian who happens to live in Germany.

If Cacau was good enough to play for Brazil there is no way he would turn them down to represent Germany.

[sellbydate]

My flippant point isn't exactly the linchpin of my argument, but whatever, I don't actually care about nations, as my argument my dictate how pointless they are. Noone ever agrees

haha, true. but there has to be some lines else there wouldn't be a tournament, and i don't really have any issues with the rules now