Scottish Independence

[blandy]

11 minutes ago, Demitri_C said:

She runs the largest party in Scotland.  If your one of the other nations in the uk why you going to even bother talking to her if it's all me me me not in the slightest care about England, Wales or Northern Ireland?

The SNPs aim is Independence, but I don't think it's remotely true that " it's all me me me not in the slightest care about England, Wales or Northern Ireland". For example they have 50 MPs at Westminster Parliament which is for the UK as a whole. It's true they tend towards deliberately abstaining from votes where the outcome doesn't apply in Scotland because of the separation of powers in some areas. That's not the same as not caring about anywhere else.

They're the most effective party in the UK parliament in many ways (compared to their no. of MPs). Why wouldn't you talk to them and Plaid Cymru and the DUP and so on? Things like defence and trade and jobs and stuff - they're UK wide issues, not just English/Welsh/Norn iron/Scottish, so talk to everyone, surely?

[Demitri_C]

12 minutes ago, blandy said:

The SNPs aim is Independence, but I don't think it's remotely true that " it's all me me me not in the slightest care about England, Wales or Northern Ireland". For example they have 50 MPs at Westminster Parliament which is for the UK as a whole. It's true they tend towards deliberately abstaining from votes where the outcome doesn't apply in Scotland because of the separation of powers in some areas. That's not the same as not caring about anywhere else.

They're the most effective party in the UK parliament in many ways (compared to their no. of MPs). Why wouldn't you talk to them and Plaid Cymru and the DUP and so on? Things like defence and trade and jobs and stuff - they're UK wide issues, not just English/Welsh/Norn iron/Scottish, so talk to everyone, surely?

That's the thing Pete that's the message I get from her. I might be a small and irrelevant part to her but when I hear her talk I get the impression she is more for her self and Scotland than the other countries. She just doesn't come across as a team player to me

Before she came in I felt Scotland was alot more United with the UK but now I just feel it's the UK and Scotland.  I also don't like the timing of the announcement either. She knows the next few weeks are huge yet she wants to create more unstability and issues for the whole of the UK. 

[blandy]

2 minutes ago, Demitri_C said:

I just feel it's the UK and Scotland.  I also don't like the timing of the announcement either. She knows the next few weeks are huge yet she wants to create more unstability and issues for the whole of the UK. 

Yes. That's probably all fair.

By making it like that, by framing it as "Scotland" and the UK, she's already winning the argument. The more Scotland is portrayed and percieved as a completely seperate nation, the closer she (or the SNP) is to winning Independence

In terms of creating chaos for the UK, the SNP are a long way behind the tories. This Scotland referendum plan is only happening because Cameron wanted to save a few seats from the UKIPs and to feed tory back-bench nutters some meat. It's not like we didn't know that this would happen, either.

[dont_do_it_doug.]

4 hours ago, Demitri_C said:

You call this a bigot shithole which I simply ask why do you live here if you think so lowly of this place? 

Because it's my country too and as with Lerner and The Villa, I refuse to be forced out.

Edit - on further reflection what kind of question is that? I've got family here, friends, a partner, a football team, a living. Why should I go rather than the bigoted, fascist leanings of a broken society?

Besides which I live in London, it's not quite so bad here and on a day to day basis I love my life. I should be allowed to criticise where I see fit without being told that I should probably leave if I don't like it. 

Edited March 14, 2017 by dont_do_it_doug.

[darrenm]

21 hours ago, tonyh29 said:

suppose we could take the  money we give to keep Scotland afloat  and give it to the EU to pay our divorce bill and then the EU can give it to Scotland and everyone is a winner  

[tonyh29]

20 minutes ago, blandy said:

This Scotland referendum plan is only happening because Cameron wanted to save a few seats from the UKIPs and to feed tory back-bench nutters some meat. It's not like we didn't know that this would happen, either.

tbf the labour collapse in Scotland played a fairly substantial part in all of this as well , I doubt Sturgeon would be so prominent with 4 MPs behind her

 

In principle I agree with the Cameron line you put forward  , but its far more deep set than that imo , rightly or wrongly UKIP have played a part in redefining a political landscape  , arguably a landscape brought about by the then labour government and the perceived failure of an open door immigration  ,they were  a fringe party for the deranged but were given a cause and whilst for a while people liked to believe it was only Tories they were appealing to , I think labour woke up too late to the idea that it wasn't indeed the case  

 That the Tory party who spent years in the political wilderness split over Europe seem relatively united whilst labour have self imploded probably worked out far better than anyone at Tory HQ  could ever have dreamt ... the UK may suffer (of course it may not  !) but Brexit has probably been the best thing that could ever have happened to the Tory party  ..and as it turns out the SNP

 

[Demitri_C]

20 minutes ago, dont_do_it_doug. said:

Because it's my country too and as with Lerner and The Villa, I refuse to be forced out.

Edit - on further reflection what kind of question is that? I've got family here, friends, a partner, a football team, a living. Why should I go rather than the bigoted, fascist leanings of a broken society?

Besides which I live in London, it's not quite so bad here and on a day to day basis I love my life. I should be allowed to criticise where I see fit without being told that I should probably leave if I don't like it. 

No one is forcing you out though?? It's just sad that you have such a negative opinion on this place. This is my home and as you know I live in LOndon too. Yes it's not perfect it has its problems but I love this country as much as I love Cyprus.

If I didn't like it here as much as it sounds you don't I'd consider going and build a life somewhere I enjoy. Thankfully I don't see this country so negativity =)

Every country has what you describe "a bigoted fascists leanings of a broken society" look at what le pen stands for in France as an example.

Of course your allowed to critise as you see fit just like I am when it comes to sturgeon so I don't get why you have such a problem with my post as she have said something of a similar nature?

 

[dont_do_it_doug.]

19 minutes ago, Demitri_C said:

 

If I didn't like it here as much as it sounds you don't I'd consider going and build a life somewhere I enjoy. Thankfully I don't see this country so negativity =)

 

I've basically just told you the exact opposite of that!

Let me try and clarify - If I was SCOTTISH I'd want out of Britain post Brexit. I'd not see the positives of being tied to a nation that is fast gaining a reputation as a right wing state and is practicing as such, with zero valid opposition. Plus, I'd definitely not want to be ruled by Westminster if I had the choice.

That doesn't mean that I'm not happy forging a life here for the time being, nor that I'm going to run away because I find the current political climate abhorrent. I don't do 'running away'.

Heck, I might actually want to get off my arse and do something about it instead. 

[peterms]

3 hours ago, Demitri_C said:

when I hear her talk I get the impression she is more for her self and Scotland than the other countries. She just doesn't come across as a team player to me

Well of course she is more concerned with Scotland than the other countries in the union.  She is a Scottish nationalist, and opposed to unionism.  It's the core principle of the party she leads.

What else would you expect?  And why would it be a point of criticism, rather than an unremarkable fact, that someone who opposes the union cares more about her own country than the union?

[blandy]

4 hours ago, dont_do_it_doug. said:

....Besides which I live in London..... 

Deepest sympathies. I heard some people have it rough, but that's awful. #prayfordave

[blandy]

4 hours ago, tonyh29 said:

Brexit has probably been the best thing that could ever have happened to the Tory party...

Much as I dislike them, I wouldn't wish a rabies infection on anyone.

[ml1dch]

Theresa thinks that "It would be unfair to the people of Scotland that they would be being asked to make a crucial decision without the information they need to make that decision."

I can't think of parallels to any other situation at all. None whatsoever.

[StefanAVFC]

3 minutes ago, ml1dch said:

Theresa thinks that "It would be unfair to the people of Scotland that they would be being asked to make a crucial decision without the information they need to make that decision."

I can't think of parallels to any other situation at all. None whatsoever.

She may be even worse than Trump when it comes to a sheer lack of self-awareness.

These idiots are ru(i)nning the country.

[Xann]

On 14/03/2017 at 15:48, Demitri_C said:

... look at what le pen stands for in France as an example.

I've stopped worrying about France. Hard right is followed by hard left, they're not into the middle ground.

Our slide to the dark side is more concerning.

[chrisp65]

It'll be interesting to see what happens to the opinion polls in Scotland now the unelected english tory PM has told the elected scottish snp first minister that she can't have a referendum on whether the scots want independence. 

I'm beginning to form an opinion that Ms May might not be a top rank tactical genius.

 

[Demitri_C]

25 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

It'll be interesting to see what happens to the opinion polls in Scotland now the unelected english tory PM has told the elected scottish snp first minister that she can't have a referendum on whether the scots want independence. 

I'm beginning to form an opinion that Ms May might not be a top rank tactical genius.

 

I know she is unelected but really it's pointless us saying this as there is no chance in hell Corbyn is being PM so it would be a waste of time holding another election.

all the alternatives are shocking which is contributing to the problem

 

[MakemineVanilla]

24 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

It'll be interesting to see what happens to the opinion polls in Scotland now the unelected english tory PM has told the elected scottish snp first minister that she can't have a referendum on whether the scots want independence. 

I'm beginning to form an opinion that Ms May might not be a top rank tactical genius.

 

Which is something you couldn't accuse the Scottish of.

When you consider the number of Scots who combined to bring about the hellhole which is Britain today, you have to say that the secret Scottish cabal of Blair, Brown and Cameron combined beautifully to bring this country to its knees, of which we have yet to face the full and fatal consequences.

John Smith was even willing to die to ensure that Labour would surf to power on a tide of sentiment.

Blair gave the Scots their own parliament, Brown bankrupted the country, and Cameron pulled the pin on Brexit to send the country down the tubes.

Now after they did all that, the Scots want out. 

 

[Risso]

53 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

It'll be interesting to see what happens to the opinion polls in Scotland now the unelected english tory PM has told the elected scottish snp first minister that she can't have a referendum on whether the scots want independence. 

I'm beginning to form an opinion that Ms May might not be a top rank tactical genius.

 

I'm not sure that May or the rest of the Conservatives take much notice of opinion polls in Scotland.  They could lose every single one of their MP, and it wouldn't have much of an effect in Westminster.

[chrisp65]

Hhmmm, the slightly cryptic point I was trying to make wasn't to suggest that the tories could suffer a loss of seats or get forced in to an early GE.

It was more that right now the polls clearly show little appetite for independence. This was potentially a poor move from Sturgeon. But she's been given a chance, something to get indignant about. Proof that tory westminster down there in that england, they decide whether scotland should be free. Surely the scots should be in charge of whether they want to be free or not?

A lack of understanding of 'people' a lack of empathy with commoners is going to be the undoing of May at some point. She might just have turned a 45 / 55 poll in to one a little closer. This in turn might now cause her attention and resources to be split with a fight on two fronts. I might be wrong, but if the next poll shifts to 47 / 53, I'd point a finger.

A less aggressive tone, a suggestion they can probably have a referendum as soon as they like might just have made a lot of people think about currency, oil, loss of a trade. Now they're potentially thinking of May being a moobag.

Personally, right now I'd have suggested I was willing to think about it but was worried about what they'd use for money.

Not a natural people person. 

[Chindie]

In b4 the ah but of 'she didn't say they couldn't have another referendum, she said not now'.

Which is more fair than the evil ersatz Thatcher wannabe deserves.