mjmooney Posted September 4, 2014 VT Supporter Share Posted September 4, 2014 Given that Scindependance would probably mean many years of continuous Tory rule, could that be a reason they've made such a pigs ear of the 'no' campaign. If the result is hanging in the balance in the final week, expect plenty of Gid and Dave in the final few days in the media, telling the Scotch to vote No, cause it's good for 'em and they must bow down to their rich southern overlords, to put the final nail in the coffin of the Union. that's actually (a bit of ) a myth On no occasion since 1945 would independence have changed the identity of the winning party and on only two occasions would it have converted a Labour majority into a hung parliament (1964 and October 1974). Without Scotland, Labour would still have won in 1945 (with a majority of 146, down from 143), in 1966 (77, down from 98), in 1997 (139, down from 179), in 2001 (129, down from 167) and in 2005 (43, down from 66). Thank you, that's rather cheered me up. OK, Scotch people, you can go after all. Bye bye. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Awol Posted September 5, 2014 Share Posted September 5, 2014 Had a conversation tonight about the independence vote with a Scottish guy I've known for years. We avoid politics in the pub as a matter of course but he started banging on about English arrogance and how it would make him vote yes. Pressed for clarification he started talking about the Scottish pound, Scottish gold in the BoE, and how there was no doubt UK would have a currency union with an independent Scotland. When I very gently tried to highlight quite how deluded this opinion was he wasn't having any of it and fell back on the "bloody English yada yada" mantra. My point? If an otherwise very intelligent guy has sucked up SNP propaganda (or lies in plain English) so unquestioningly, it makes you wonder how many more have/will when exposed to it 24/7. If they go for it there are going to be some very surprised/upset/angry people north of the border when they realise quite how badly they've been deceived by the nationalists. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CarewsEyebrowDesigner Posted September 5, 2014 Share Posted September 5, 2014 Most lefty Scotch I know/know of are voting Yes, most in the belief that they will become a social democracy like Sweden/Norway. I suspect that is the last thing they will become, as whoever is in charge will bend over backwards to keep Big Bizniz happy. I understand (and sympathise) with wanting to get rid of the elitist Westminster lot, however. If Scotland buggering off results in the rest of us sitting back and reassessing our political situation, then maybe it'll be the tough medicine we all need. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nabby Posted September 5, 2014 Share Posted September 5, 2014 Had a conversation tonight about the independence vote with a Scottish guy I've known for years. We avoid politics in the pub as a matter of course but he started banging on about English arrogance and how it would make him vote yes. Pressed for clarification he started talking about the Scottish pound, Scottish gold in the BoE, and how there was no doubt UK would have a currency union with an independent Scotland. When I very gently tried to highlight quite how deluded this opinion was he wasn't having any of it and fell back on the "bloody English yada yada" mantra. My point? If an otherwise very intelligent guy has sucked up SNP propaganda (or lies in plain English) so unquestioningly, it makes you wonder how many more have/will when exposed to it 24/7. If they go for it there are going to be some very surprised/upset/angry people north of the border when they realise quite how badly they've been deceived by the nationalists. That's the attitude I am seeing.as well. They might say ''westminster'' but the insinuation is the English when they talk about other people running them. My mother's side of the family is scotish so if there is a yes vote I can freely move up to their utopian paradise Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterms Posted September 5, 2014 Share Posted September 5, 2014 The big problem is twofold. First, because the SNP form the government, they lead the campaign. Voices like Radical Independence, National Collective, Greens, SSP are frozen out by the SNP apparatchiks. That means that a narrow, mean, introverted and wholly negative philosophy has imbued the campaign, despite the rhetorical bollocks about how positive the Yes campaign has been. Second, and even worse, these unimaginative fuckwits form the government, and therefore have the lead, the only, role in negotiating post- Indy arrangements. But their lack of imagination means they conceive of only neo-liberal economics. They will pursue stupid and negative policies, driven by a shallow resentment rather than a more positive and radical vision. They will totally screw it up, and people will conclude, wrongly, that it was self-direction that caused this bad outcome. It's going to be a difficult couple of years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Awol Posted September 5, 2014 Share Posted September 5, 2014 (edited) It's going to be a difficult couple of years. I fear so, but it won't only affect our porridge gobbling kin. I admit that hearing Scotland the Brave played by the Pipes and Drums lengthens my spine by 3 inches, same way that Men of Harlech gives me goose bumps, but emotions aside if Scotland bugger off it will leave a huge hole in NATO's defence of our northern flank. Not a sexy subject but a farking serious one. Edit: speeeling Edited September 5, 2014 by Awol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterms Posted September 6, 2014 Share Posted September 6, 2014 I had a long discussion with my missus about the Indy question. During our discussion, she explained that I was a drooling oaf. I pointed out that she was a delusional old trout. One of the kids pulled up a stool to observe us in greater comfort. I like to think we captured the flavour of the wider national debate. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted September 6, 2014 Share Posted September 6, 2014 I had a long discussion with my missus about the Indy question. During our discussion, she explained that I was a drooling oaf. I pointed out that she was a delusional old trout. One of the kids pulled up a stool to observe us in greater comfort. I like to think we captured the flavour of the wider national debate. you just need to throw in some random numbers and you're there just shout "6.4 million over 5 years which is higher than Norway" to which, if she's got her wits about her, she can respond "but going forward 2.4% over each quarter will be a reduction - we've already stated this" it's a very sophisticated form of jazz 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dont_do_it_doug. Posted September 6, 2014 Share Posted September 6, 2014 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
troon_villan Posted September 6, 2014 Share Posted September 6, 2014 If they do gain independence, will we start seeing adverts about sending money to the poor scotch people? "If you give a scotch a fish, it will feed him for a day. If you give a scotch a rod, he can fly fish for his family for up to a year..." "For only £3 a month, you could help teach a scotch how to catch his own haggis, for £6 a month, you could wean a scotch family off smack for a month.." Got one, ta. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nabby Posted September 6, 2014 Share Posted September 6, 2014 Polls now have Yes vote ahead ...expect to see the pound tank Monday morning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avfc96 Posted September 6, 2014 Share Posted September 6, 2014 (edited) Would be interesting to see if they did actually vote for independence. Spain has already said it will veto any attempt of them to join the EU. They don't have a currency to use as such in the aftermath of independence. Edited September 7, 2014 by Avfc96 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LondonLax Posted September 7, 2014 Share Posted September 7, 2014 So now it looks like there is a real possibility of a yes vote it seems the Unionists are ready to offer full devolution as a carrot in the event of a no vote. Everyone wins? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eames Posted September 7, 2014 Share Posted September 7, 2014 So now it looks like there is a real possibility of a yes vote it seems the Unionists are ready to offer full devolution as a carrot in the event of a no vote. Everyone wins? Yep. That's the one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maqroll Posted September 7, 2014 Author Share Posted September 7, 2014 Would be interesting to see if they did actually vote for independence. Spain has already said it will veto any attempt of them to join the EU. They don't have a currency to use as such in the aftermath of independence. The Scotto? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrentVilla Posted September 7, 2014 Moderator Share Posted September 7, 2014 I had a long discussion with my missus about the Indy question. During our discussion, she explained that I was a drooling oaf. I pointed out that she was a delusional old trout. One of the kids pulled up a stool to observe us in greater comfort. I like to think we captured the flavour of the wider national debate. Shouldn't you have also had fight over a pound? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drat01 Posted September 7, 2014 Share Posted September 7, 2014 On intellectual wastelands such as Facebook (and various forums) you see comments like "let 'em go" "They will struggle following independence" etc etc, conveniently through intent or negligence to consider the rest of the UK if this happens. The impact in terms of cost alone to England to basically comply with this will be enormous, hitting funds that Gvmts have so called allocated for key services - the usual ones that get cut when cuts and costs are mentioned. Then there are the cost and impacts to business. Dealing with cross border companies and contracts is currently a minefield and will occur again. I deal a lot with customers in Eire for example and we have to follow a long established set of procedures to comply with the laws of the UK and Eire, establishing and complying with new sets will be costly and beneficial only to those who will charge to make it happen. Next a comment about "immigration" - As Scotland will be outside of the EU - and probably for some time, there will be adjustments needed for trade and working rights of Scots in the rest of the EU and companies who base themselves north of the border. I know of at least 5 major companies who are looking at moving IT assets into England if they do vote yes - planning for this has to start now - to comply with many of the business agreements and laws. Staffing levels and abilities to trade are one of the drivers behind this. Also where does this stop, will Wales call for independence, will Cornwall, will Yorkshire, all far fetched (even the Wales thing) but the amounts of efforts dealing with this will be large. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterms Posted September 7, 2014 Share Posted September 7, 2014 Would be interesting to see if they did actually vote for independence. Spain has already said it will veto any attempt of them to join the EU. They don't have a currency to use as such in the aftermath of independence. The Scotto? The £ Stirling. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted September 7, 2014 Share Posted September 7, 2014 On intellectual wastelands such as Facebook (and various forums) you see comments like "let 'em go" "They will struggle following independence" etc etc, conveniently through intent or negligence to consider the rest of the UK if this happens. The impact in terms of cost alone to England to basically comply with this will be enormous, hitting funds that Gvmts have so called allocated for key services - the usual ones that get cut when cuts and costs are mentioned. Then there are the cost and impacts to business. Dealing with cross border companies and contracts is currently a minefield and will occur again. I deal a lot with customers in Eire for example and we have to follow a long established set of procedures to comply with the laws of the UK and Eire, establishing and complying with new sets will be costly and beneficial only to those who will charge to make it happen. Next a comment about "immigration" - As Scotland will be outside of the EU - and probably for some time, there will be adjustments needed for trade and working rights of Scots in the rest of the EU and companies who base themselves north of the border. I know of at least 5 major companies who are looking at moving IT assets into England if they do vote yes - planning for this has to start now - to comply with many of the business agreements and laws. Staffing levels and abilities to trade are one of the drivers behind this. Also where does this stop, will Wales call for independence, will Cornwall, will Yorkshire, all far fetched (even the Wales thing) but the amounts of efforts dealing with this will be large. Yorkshire can go as long as they promise to take Derbyshire with them I was thinking myself though what's this all going to cost ... Presumably long term England will be better off not bailing out a third world country but short term it's going to be messy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CarewsEyebrowDesigner Posted September 7, 2014 Share Posted September 7, 2014 Squeaky bum time! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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