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Kim Jong Il dead


LincsVilla

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Fair?

helped bring about the end of the cold war which resulted in the dismantling of the Soviet empire ...

we may not (all) appreciate it but i suspect there are a lot of Europeans who do

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On a serious note, she is getting a state funeral when she dies. I think the only other PM to get one was Winston Churchill, and you know, he kinda won the second world war. Maggie introduced the poll tax and shut down this countries mining industry. Fair?

The poll tax was the fairest way of that area of taxation, but like all things fair, the socialists decided to kill it......

And wasn't it Arthur Scargill who made sure that the mining industry ended, pushing all the business his son-in-law's way?

All about the angle from which you are looking at it...........

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Hopefully steering this away from tiresome party political crap...

This is a huge event. His son is far from prepared to rule, and the country is unprepared for him to rule either (though you might argue the difference it'd make to the place, which is one of the most utterly ruined nations on earth, is neglible). It's another knock to stability, which international relations cannot abide. Anything could happen - his son is Western educated, perhaps he could be more pliable to Western advances. Or perhaps he's even more of a raving lunatic than his father ever was. Or perhaps his naivety will lead power to fall to advisors who are a complete unknown quantity.

Very interesting stuff. And worrying if you're in Seoul.

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And worrying if you're in Seoul.

there is not a cats in hell chance of them getting over (or under) the DMZ ..guess the only worry would be if they decided to test those nukes of theirs and no way the Chinese would let them do that

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The worry would be, surely, that the new leader(s) do not let China know/just do it anyway?

Thats what I was getting at. Unknown quantities. South Korea has reacted to that, and no doubt many others will be looking anxiously to see what happens in the short term - because they've got no idea what they're dealing with.

EDIT - I mean they don't even really know what the N.Korean capability is.

The situation has changed. Jong Il was mad as a box of frogs, clearly, but he also seemed to understand that China held his leash and that he had a quite considerable US force on his doorstep, he attempted to level the playing field with a nuclear ambition, the extent of which is unknown and gave him somewhat of a decent hand to play to ensure he was left alone.

Does his son follow in those footsteps? Is he a more rational man? A less rational man? Will he be allowed to change things by those behind and under him?

Nobody has a clue. But equally, nobody wants to be caught with their pants down. We appear to be hoping he's a man who will be allowed, and want, to come to the table a little more.

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I mean they don't even really know what the N.Korean capability is.

'They' know that NK has enough artillery dug in and ranged on Seoul to reduce it to rubble in very short order, if they chose to.

The concern would surely be that his son (who isn't much older than you) will need to take a hardline in order to retain - or gain - the support of the senior NK Generals?

I agree with your conclusion that no one really knows how it will go, but the chances of China allowing a reunified and democratic ally of the US and Japan on its land border are about 0%.

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'They' know that NK has enough artillery dug in and ranged on Seoul to reduce it to rubble in very short order, if they chose to.

The concern would surely be that his son (who isn't much older than you) will need to take a hardline in order to retain - or gain - the support of the senior NK Generals?

I agree with your conclusion that no one really knows how it will go, but the chances of China allowing a reunified and democratic ally of the US and Japan on its land border are about 0%.

Indeed, the conventional capability is pretty obvious and has been for years. The nuclear, on the other hand, appears to be rather more guesswork and that has been a worry, now its even more so.

I'm glad you agree that it's questionable if Jong Un will even be allowed to rule as he wishes, or be capable of doing it even if allowed. Which is yet another hit to the stability of this nation and thus it's predictability. Civil war could certainly happen.

We know so little about this man that we don't even know exactly how old he is.

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Fair?

helped bring about the end of the cold war which resulted in the dismantling of the Soviet empire ...

we may not (all) appreciate it but i suspect there are a lot of Europeans who do

The Soviet Union would have imploded from within with or without Thatcher and anyone else for that matter.

It was essentially a contradictory, beauracratic, overlapping political machine which could only ever end in one way - economic ruin and collapse of the state.

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Fair?

helped bring about the end of the cold war which resulted in the dismantling of the Soviet empire ...

we may not (all) appreciate it but i suspect there are a lot of Europeans who do

The Soviet Union would have imploded from within with or without Thatcher and anyone else for that matter.

It was essentially a contradictory, beauracratic, overlapping political machine which could only ever end in one way - economic ruin and collapse of the state.

Precisely, the Communist Bloc was a house of cards held together with fear, the people of those countries forced the end of the Cold War allied to the regieme being so short of actual money they had to simply just give up. Whether it be the people of Russia who Gorbachev gave a little sniff of freedom to with Perestroika & Glasnost (and that was kind of forced on the CP by the fact that they knew they couldn't hold the people together much longer), the Polish lead by the Gdansk Shipworkers and Lech Walensa, the Czech's with Vaclav Havel... It was happening everywhere across the Communist Bloc. People power brought an end to the Cold War, I was in Poland, Lithuania, Latvia and the USSR at the time, working and mixing with your average Joe, staying in some of their houses and workmens hostels too, which would have been unthinkable only a couple of years earlier, they'd had enough, they were taking every bit of their little gains in freedom and running a mile with them and you just knew if they couldn't run that mile they'd keep pushing until they did. Once one of those countries freed themselves it was only a matter of time and the whole lot came down and it really did have bugger all to do with SALT talks and arms reduction, they weren't there to end the Cold War, they were there to save both sides some cash, in fact if those talks hadn't taken place and the arsenals reduced there is actually an argument that the fall of the Communist Bloc would have been much earlier as the constant arms building would have bankrupted the Bloc much earlier.

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x742Y.jpg

Are you thinking what I'm thinking?

I've seen the plans for the gravestone, they are very nice and pleasing to the eye.

My only criticism is that the dance floor should be much bigger.

We do get a celebratory day off though, right?

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Fair?

helped bring about the end of the cold war which resulted in the dismantling of the Soviet empire ...

we may not (all) appreciate it but i suspect there are a lot of Europeans who do

The Soviet Union would have imploded from within with or without Thatcher and anyone else for that matter.

It was essentially a contradictory, beauracratic, overlapping political machine which could only ever end in one way - economic ruin and collapse of the state.

Precisely, the Communist Bloc was a house of cards held together with fear, the people of those countries forced the end of the Cold War allied to the regieme being so short of actual money they had to simply just give up. Whether it be the people of Russia who Gorbachev gave a little sniff of freedom to with Perestroika & Glasnost (and that was kind of forced on the CP by the fact that they knew they couldn't hold the people together much longer), the Polish lead by the Gdansk Shipworkers and Lech Walensa, the Czech's with Vaclav Havel... It was happening everywhere across the Communist Bloc. People power brought an end to the Cold War, I was in Poland, Lithuania, Latvia and the USSR at the time, working and mixing with your average Joe, staying in some of their houses and workmens hostels too, which would have been unthinkable only a couple of years earlier, they'd had enough, they were taking every bit of their little gains in freedom and running a mile with them and you just knew if they couldn't run that mile they'd keep pushing until they did. Once one of those countries freed themselves it was only a matter of time and the whole lot came down and it really did have bugger all to do with SALT talks and arms reduction, they weren't there to end the Cold War, they were there to save both sides some cash, in fact if those talks hadn't taken place and the arsenals reduced there is actually an argument that the fall of the Communist Bloc would have been much earlier as the constant arms building would have bankrupted the Bloc much earlier.

I agree. One of the most important theories that thrived throughout the Cold War in the west was the domino theory that if one state came under Communist rule, then it would spread in that region, and I believe it can also be applied correctly to the dismantling of Eastern Europe under the Soviets.

As you said bickster, it was only a matter of time, and once one country broke away the rest would surely rise up and follow.

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The poll tax was the fairest way of that area of taxation, but like all things fair, the socialists decided to kill it......

splutter, spits tea at screen. It was ludicrous. Then the last labour lot were talking about re-basing council tax which is more or less the same thing. Politions don't when to leave established systems well alone.

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Fair?

helped bring about the end of the cold war which resulted in the dismantling of the Soviet empire ...

we may not (all) appreciate it but i suspect there are a lot of Europeans who do

The Soviet Union would have imploded from within with or without Thatcher and anyone else for that matter.

It was essentially a contradictory, beauracratic, overlapping political machine which could only ever end in one way - economic ruin and collapse of the state.

Precisely, the Communist Bloc was a house of cards held together with fear, the people of those countries forced the end of the Cold War allied to the regieme being so short of actual money they had to simply just give up. Whether it be the people of Russia who Gorbachev gave a little sniff of freedom to with Perestroika & Glasnost (and that was kind of forced on the CP by the fact that they knew they couldn't hold the people together much longer), the Polish lead by the Gdansk Shipworkers and Lech Walensa, the Czech's with Vaclav Havel... It was happening everywhere across the Communist Bloc. People power brought an end to the Cold War, I was in Poland, Lithuania, Latvia and the USSR at the time, working and mixing with your average Joe, staying in some of their houses and workmens hostels too, which would have been unthinkable only a couple of years earlier, they'd had enough, they were taking every bit of their little gains in freedom and running a mile with them and you just knew if they couldn't run that mile they'd keep pushing until they did. Once one of those countries freed themselves it was only a matter of time and the whole lot came down and it really did have bugger all to do with SALT talks and arms reduction, they weren't there to end the Cold War, they were there to save both sides some cash, in fact if those talks hadn't taken place and the arsenals reduced there is actually an argument that the fall of the Communist Bloc would have been much earlier as the constant arms building would have bankrupted the Bloc much earlier.

I agree. One of the most important theories that thrived throughout the Cold War in the west was the domino theory that if one state came under Communist rule, then it would spread in that region, and I believe it can also be applied correctly to the dismantling of Eastern Europe under the Soviets.

As you said bickster, it was only a matter of time, and once one country broke away the rest would surely rise up and follow.

who knows maybe it would have been 1 year maybe it would have been 5 or maybe not at all but it was precisely the stance that Thatcher (and Reagan)took that showed the soviet bloc that the U.S.S.R's foundations were faulty,they couldn't match the arms race of the west and confronted by its free economies and the reality of its liberties, the Communist state were eventually forced to recognize their own failure.

(but really not the right thread)

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Radio 5 and callers having a good laugh today about the lies that his people were fed about his greatness, the magical feats he could perform on the golf course, and the requirement to have pictures of him hanging in prominent places.

It's a good job we live in a far more sophisticated culture, where no such myths are instilled in children from an early age.

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Oh come on Peter even Jesus only managed 9 hole in ones on his first round of golf :mrgreen:

That's a LIE! It was the full 18, but he awarded the match to his opponent anyway. He's just that kind of guy.

I understand his party trick with water was much appreciated in the 19th hole.

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