What defines an English person...

[theunderstudy]

I'm British not English, I may have been born in England but I've got far more Scots and Irish blood.

But I'm from Solihull and have spent the last 10 years growing up in the green and pleasant land of North Gloucs/South Worcs.

It may be bollocks and there's no typical Brit, but it's clear I've got a few attributes to fit the stereotype, odd sense of humour, moans about everything, knows how to queue and above all doesn't panic. And I always know where my towel is.

And MrDuck...the Irish are not British.

[Amsterdam_Neil_D]

I would never say I was British if asked, bit like saying I have a Ferrari but there is are quite a few Skoda parts implemented.

[CrackpotForeigner]

I would never say I was British if asked, bit like saying I have a Ferrari but there is are quite a few Skoda parts implemented.

Surely you mean you have a Skoda, but with some Ferrari parts?

He he he.

[MrDuck]

And MrDuck...the Irish are not British.

Argh. Of course. I was just thinking Northern Ireland - but that's part of the UK rather than Great Britain isn't it? Doh.

[The_Rev]

Yep. Great Britain is the large island that England, Wales & Scotland form. I believe the term was coined by the French (well, the people who lived in what is now France) to differentiate our island from the peninsula of Brittany in north west France which sits on the opposite side of the channel from Devon and Cornwall.

[bickster]

And MrDuck...the Irish are not British.

Argh. Of course. I was just thinking Northern Ireland - but that's part of the UK rather than Great Britain isn't it? Doh.

Ah But it isn't that simple! The island of Ireland is the second largest of the 6000+ islands in the British Isles archipelago (the fourth largest archipelago in the world), so taking political boundaries aside and not being imperialistic in any way, the Irish are British. They aren't in the same country as the UK but they are a British nation and people in the non-possessive sense. Yes they are a separate ethic grouping, yes they are from a different country but they are still a British country in the sense that they are a country in the British Isles and their people a from an island in the British Isles. The problem comes with the term British which means so many things and is the heart of the problem with Northern Ireland. Northern Ireland should logically and rightly be part of the same country as Eire it's just that religion and politics get in the way far too much, the people in both countries are Irish after all (no matter what some of the people in the North think and want.)

If Britain was totally devolved the Welsh, English and Scottish would still be described as British, it's no different for the Irish except politics & religion get in the way and turn that description of their country into a political minefield.

[leviramsey]

I do wonder how this thread would go across in the USA. It's one of the most diverse places on Earth, it is more a continent than a country in both size and population. It is a country of immigrants where most people can still trace back the name of the person who took the boat there, yet they make their kids worship a flag every morning at school. I do wonder what effect that has on people.

For the record, this is the first google result for "what defines an American" (or at least it is for me... Google will often return different results to different people, after all).

And I think Google nailed it, more or less. "Life, liberty, and the pursuit" and all that. A dream is probably the only conception of nationality that works in a culture where just about everybody is hyphenated (Anglo-Scottish-Irish-Welsh-Dutch-American here...) but where a certain belief in exceptionalism bordering on chauvinism is de rigeur.

Hmm. Isn't that all a bit gash?

We may as well (as Englishmen - for a British tar is that) wander around claiming to be soaring souls as free as mountain birds, no?

But it is generally true that Americans collectively hold the American Dream. In surveys that ask questions along the lines of whether one's success in life is most attributable to that person's qualities etc. (which idea is one of the most significant underpinnings of the American Dream), the USA consistently has the highest rate of agreement with that, and it tends to cut across demographic and ideological lines: the American Left refers to and endorses the American Dream at least as much as the American Right. So if you're looking for something that really well correlates to being an American as opposed to English (though it must be said that the underpinnings of what I'm discussing are more or less old-school English Whiggism, which itself is more than a little bit Dutch-influenced), then believing in the American Dream (esp. in its individualist and messianic aspects...) is probably about as good as you're going to get.

What exactly is the difference between "believe the American Dream" and

Keep calm and carry on; a healthy disrepect for and suspicion of authority in any form; non-conformism and the celebration of eccentricity; bloody minded stubborness in the face of adversity; belief in fair play and support for the under dog; the sense of humour...

[Ponky]

I have no idea really but this is the impression I get from TV:

And this is the impression I get from the English folk who have settled into my quiet little suburb:

But this is my impression of how my ancestors looked when they were English:

[LondonLax]

And MrDuck...the Irish are not British.

Argh. Of course. I was just thinking Northern Ireland - but that's part of the UK rather than Great Britain isn't it? Doh.

Ah But it isn't that simple! The island of Ireland is the second largest of the 6000+ islands in the British Isles archipelago (the fourth largest archipelago in the world), so taking political boundaries aside and not being imperialistic in any way, the Irish are British. They aren't in the same country as the UK but they are a British nation and people in the non-possessive sense. Yes they are a separate ethic grouping, yes they are from a different country but they are still a British country in the sense that they are a country in the British Isles and their people a from an island in the British Isles. The problem comes with the term British which means so many things and is the heart of the problem with Northern Ireland. Northern Ireland should logically and rightly be part of the same country as Eire it's just that religion and politics get in the way far too much, the people in both countries are Irish after all (no matter what some of the people in the North think and want.)

If Britain was totally devolved the Welsh, English and Scottish would still be described as British, it's no different for the Irish except politics & religion get in the way and turn that description of their country into a political minefield.

That is true but then "Great Britain" refers to the island in the British Isles which contains England, Scotland and Wales. The name "Great" was added to distinguish it from Brittany in what is now France.

[Awol]

What exactly is the difference between "believe the American Dream" and

Keep calm and carry on; a healthy disrepect for and suspicion of authority in any form; non-conformism and the celebration of eccentricity; bloody minded stubborness in the face of adversity; belief in fair play and support for the under dog; the sense of humour...

If the 'American Dream' is enshrined in its Constitution (one of the finest documents ever written, imo) then it is the logical end of the road that began with the English Bill of Rights in 1689. There are some clear cultural differences between the US and UK but the political model underpinning the former was in large part inspired by philisophical winds blowing across the Atlantic.

"Do not think that...the uninfluenced majority of Englishmen in this Island are enemies to their own blood on the American Continent. Much delusion has been practiced; much corrupt influence treacherously employed...the largest and soundest part of this Kingdom preserves in the most perfect unity of sentiments, principles and affections with you". - Edmund Burke 1777

I would suggest that the cultural (rather than racial) phenomenon of 'American exceptionalism' is more correctly described as 'Anglo-Saxon exceptionalism'.

[The_Rev]

You can trace that back further to the Romans if you want. Both our systems of government are based on what the Romans did, over in the States they even decided to call one of their houses the Senate!

Again, this further compounds just how similar we all really are and how it is practically impossible to pin down a single thing which gives us national identity. Maybe there is are more distinct line between Westerners and the rest of the world (I am sure you can draw up large subdivisions in other parts of the world too, but it's besides the point) but at the end of the day we are all just human beings.

[blandy]

George Farthing, an expatriate British man living in America, was recently

diagnosed as clinically depressed, tanked up on anti-depressants and

scheduled for controversial Shock Therapy when doctors realised he wasn't

depressed at all - only English.

Mr Farthing, whose characteristic pessimism and gloomy perspective were

interpreted as serious clinical depression, was led on a nightmare journey

through the American psychiatric system. Doctors described Farthing as

suffering with Pervasive Negative Anticipation - a belief that everything

will turn out for the worst, whether it's trains arriving late, England's

chances at winning any international sports event or even his own prospects

to get ahead in life and achieve

his dreams.

"The satisfaction Mr Farthing seemed to get from his pessimism seemed

particularly pathological," reported the doctors.

"They put me on everything - Lithium, Prozac, St John's Wort," said Mr

Farthing. "They even told me to sit in front of a big light for an hour a

day or I'd become suicidal. I kept telling them this was all pointless and

they said that it was exactly that sort of attitude that got me here in the

first place."

Running out of ideas, his doctors finally resorted to a course of "weapons

grade amphetamine", the only noticeable effect of which was six hours of

speedy repetitions of the phrases "mustn't grumble" and "not too bad,

really".

It was then that Mr Farthing was referred to a psychotherapist.

Dr Isaac Horney explored Mr Farthing's family history and couldn't believe

his ears.

"His story of a childhood growing up in a grey little town where it rained

every day, treeless streets of identical houses and passionately backing a

football team who never won, seemed to be typical depressive ideation or

false memory. Mr Farthing had six months of therapy but seemed to mainly

want to talk about the weather - how miserable and cold it was in winter and

later how difficult and hot it was in summer. I felt he wasn't responding to

therapy at all and so I recommended drastic action - namely ECT or shock

treatment".

"I was all strapped down on the table and they were about to put the rubber

bit in my mouth when the psychiatric nurse picked up on my accent," said Mr

Farthing. "I remember her saying 'Oh my God, I think we're making a terrible

mistake'." Nurse Alice Sheen was a big fan of British comedy, giving her an

understanding of the English psyche.

"Classic comedy characters like Tony Hancock, Albert Steptoe and Frank

Spencer are all hopeless cases with no chance of ever doing well or escaping

their circumstances," she explained to the baffled US medics. "That's funny

in England and is not seen as pathological at all."

Identifying Mr Farthing as English changed his diagnosis from 'clinical

depression' to 'rather quaint and charming' and he was immediately

discharged from hospital, with a selection of brightly coloured leaflets and

an "I love New York" T-shirt

[Jon]

George Farthing, an expatriate British man living in America, was recently

diagnosed as clinically depressed, tanked up on anti-depressants and

scheduled for controversial Shock Therapy when doctors realised he wasn't

depressed at all - only English.

Mr Farthing, whose characteristic pessimism and gloomy perspective were

interpreted as serious clinical depression, was led on a nightmare journey

through the American psychiatric system. Doctors described Farthing as

suffering with Pervasive Negative Anticipation - a belief that everything

will turn out for the worst, whether it's trains arriving late, England's

chances at winning any international sports event or even his own prospects

to get ahead in life and achieve

his dreams.

"The satisfaction Mr Farthing seemed to get from his pessimism seemed

particularly pathological," reported the doctors.

"They put me on everything - Lithium, Prozac, St John's Wort," said Mr

Farthing. "They even told me to sit in front of a big light for an hour a

day or I'd become suicidal. I kept telling them this was all pointless and

they said that it was exactly that sort of attitude that got me here in the

first place."

Running out of ideas, his doctors finally resorted to a course of "weapons

grade amphetamine", the only noticeable effect of which was six hours of

speedy repetitions of the phrases "mustn't grumble" and "not too bad,

really".

It was then that Mr Farthing was referred to a psychotherapist.

Dr Isaac Horney explored Mr Farthing's family history and couldn't believe

his ears.

"His story of a childhood growing up in a grey little town where it rained

every day, treeless streets of identical houses and passionately backing a

football team who never won, seemed to be typical depressive ideation or

false memory. Mr Farthing had six months of therapy but seemed to mainly

want to talk about the weather - how miserable and cold it was in winter and

later how difficult and hot it was in summer. I felt he wasn't responding to

therapy at all and so I recommended drastic action - namely ECT or shock

treatment".

"I was all strapped down on the table and they were about to put the rubber

bit in my mouth when the psychiatric nurse picked up on my accent," said Mr

Farthing. "I remember her saying 'Oh my God, I think we're making a terrible

mistake'." Nurse Alice Sheen was a big fan of British comedy, giving her an

understanding of the English psyche.

"Classic comedy characters like Tony Hancock, Albert Steptoe and Frank

Spencer are all hopeless cases with no chance of ever doing well or escaping

their circumstances," she explained to the baffled US medics. "That's funny

in England and is not seen as pathological at all."

Identifying Mr Farthing as English changed his diagnosis from 'clinical

depression' to 'rather quaint and charming' and he was immediately

discharged from hospital, with a selection of brightly coloured leaflets and

an "I love New York" T-shirt

Excellent stuff Peter!

[mjmooney]

Binne Dunne, though.

[Eames]

That is true but then "Great Britain" refers to the island in the British Isles which contains England, Scotland and Wales. The name "Great" was added to distinguish it from Brittany in what is now France.

Brittania was the name given to these islands by the Romans.

"England" and the concept of the "English" is a corruption of the Angles, a West German tribe who invaded after the departure of the Romans.

Wales and Scotland have a national identity in their own right and always did have. The concept of the "United Kingdom" came following the accession of James I as a well to distinguish the unification of the crowns of Scotland and England.

The English people (of which I count myself as a member) are like the Americans, essentially a mongrel people in terms of ethnicity. With Celtic,Saxon,Norman, Angle and Norse heritige. Our Language is also essentially an amalgation of the above with a healthy dose of Latin thrown in for good measure.

Its why it is such a pain in the arse to learn...... and how we have foibles such as ghoti and chips.....

[tonyh29]

a mongrel people in terms of ethnicity. With Celtic,Saxon,Norman, Angle and Norse heritige.

not really true

the Iberians were probably the first people here ... the Picts followed but they were related to the Iberians who came before them

The Romans appear to have added very little to the gene pool (settlements were mainly of military nature )

the Normans were Vikings from Denmark (and N Germany ) ... the Saxons were Vikings from Denmark / N germany but a few hundred years earlier

i.e the Normans changed the language of Britain, but added no new physical element

So the English are in effect a nation formed by union of various tribes of the same stock .. and not the mongrel race that some would have us believe ...

[bickster]

The Romans appear to have added very little to the gene pool (settlements were mainly of military nature )

Simply not true, firstly many of the "Romans" that came to Britain weren't even Roman at all, they were from all over the Roman Empire, secondly archaeologists have discovered countless examples of mixing between the "invaders" and the "natives" thing is the invaders were often from much the same stock as the natives, Roman soldiers were largely mercenaries whose ranks were filled with people from defeated countries

[mjmooney]

The Romans appear to have added very little to the gene pool (settlements were mainly of military nature )

Simply not true, firstly many of the "Romans" that came to Britain weren't even Roman at all, they were from all over the Roman Empire, secondly archaeologists have discovered countless examples of mixing between the "invaders" and the "natives" thing is the invaders were often from much the same stock as the natives, Roman soldiers were largely mercenaries whose ranks were filled with people from defeated countries

This is true.

When the Romans "left" in the 5th century, thousands of them stayed behind because they (or their fathers, grandfathers, etc.) had married British (i.e. Celtic) women - there was an entire "Romano-British" hybrid culture. And they were, as you say, actually from all over the Empire.

In the era of DNA analysis, we can get some amazing surprises.

Even what is white may be found to be black.

In fact, genetic evidence revealed Africans living amongst "indigenous" White British people for centuries. These "Black" British were of course unaware of their black ancestry.

The team at the University of Leicester discovered that one third of men with a rare Yorkshire surname possess a rare Y chromosome type which is typical for West African populations.

The African chromosome, called hgA1, was first found in a Leicester man, Mr. X, while the researchers were investigating a link between surnames and the Y chromosome, which come both from the father to the son. "As you can imagine, we were pretty amazed to find this result in someone unaware of having any African roots," explains Professor Mark Jobling, of the Department of Genetics at the University of Leicester. "The Y chromosome is passed down from father to son, so this suggested that Mr. X must have had African ancestry somewhere down the line. Our study suggests that this must have happened some time ago."

Most of Britain's one million "Black British" are immigrants from the Caribbean and Africa from the mid-twentieth century onwards, but they are not the first African people entering the islands.

In the second century they were first recorded in the Roman troops defending Hadrian's Wall. Six other men with the same surname, including an American whose ancestors had immigrated in the XIXth century, were carrying the hgA1 chromosome.

Genealogical investigation pointed to a common ancestor for all seven men 250 years ago, thus hgA1 Y chromosome is older than the one in their family. But the time when the first man carrying the gene entered Britain could not be established, and also if it was an African immigrant or a European male carrying an African Y chromosome. "This study shows that what it means to be British is complicated and always has been," says Professor Jobling.

"Human migration history is clearly very complex, particularly for an island nation such as ours, and this study further debunks the idea that there are simple and distinct populations or 'races'."

"Forensic scientists use DNA analysis to predict a person's ethnic origins, for example from hair or blood samples found at a crime scene. Whilst they are very likely to predict the correct ethnicity by using wider analysis of DNA other than the Y chromosome, finding this remarkable African chromosome would certainly have them scratching their heads for a while." said Jobbling.

Link

[tonyh29]

The Romans appear to have added very little to the gene pool (settlements were mainly of military nature )

Simply not true, firstly many of the "Romans" that came to Britain weren't even Roman at all, they were from all over the Roman Empire, secondly archaeologists have discovered countless examples of mixing between the "invaders" and the "natives" thing is the invaders were often from much the same stock as the natives, Roman soldiers were largely mercenaries whose ranks were filled with people from defeated countries

errrm .. you appear to be agreeing with my statement :confused:

[Chindie]

The Romans actually intentionally stationed people from all over their (vast) empire in places foreign to them. The idea being if you were a foreigner in a foreign land, you'd be less inclined to do a runner or conspire with other natives - it was actually better for you to stick with the legions as at least they knew you.

If you were a native 'Brit' and captured or put into service with the Romans, you'd be shipped off elsewhere.

As for the mongrel thing... well, all humans are to one degree or another 'mongrels'. Britain is particularly mongrel as it's been invaded numerous times, regardless of whether those invaders were of similar 'stock' or not - the stock wasn't so 'stock' to begin with.