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Poppies


wiggyrichard

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People like Cameron wearing poppies saying how brave our soldiers are, doing a fine job, it almost legitimises the terrible wars he's supported, that's political. FIFA rules stand.

:shock:

i thought all the barking posts were confined to the God thread , clearly i was wrong

Even when Hitler invaded Poland I knew it was all the fault of those damn Tory's

For the benefit of debate, would you care to expand on that?
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Here's a question:

What if the Palestinian football team wore emblems on their shirts remembering the "martyred" suicide bombers of Gaza? Would people object to that?

But that is different.

The reason being the Poppy is internationally renowned to represent the military from all conflicts.

If the Palestinian football team wore an emblem that allowed their country to remember the military personal lost in ALL conflicts (ie keeping it general....I would have no problem.

I'd disagree on your first point. The poppy is the symbol of the Royal British Legion. Buying a poppy results in a donation to that charity.

While it may symbolise something wider, it is directly associated with a charity dedicated to British servicemen and women.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-15637074

Royal British Legion, yes. But the poppy is an internationally renowned symbol

Regardless, the England team would be wearing poppies which would be bought by the FA from the Royal British Legion and the money would go to British servicemen and women.

So, how would people feel if a similar action was undertaken by the Palestinian FA?

Who are FIFA to decide which charitable and political causes are more worthy than another?

As I said, IF the emblem was a symbol of rememberance for all palestinian soldiers who had lost their lives in any conflicts WITHOUT sole reference to Suicide bombings ...I would have no problems.

FIFA should use commonsense. Was it not FIFA who promised to help make SAfrica more literate when awarding the World Cup? Do they not have UNICEF as a charity? It seems FIFA already decide which charitable causes are more worthy than others.

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As I said, IF the emblem was a symbol of rememberance for all palestinian soldiers who had lost their lives in any conflicts WITHOUT sole reference to Suicide bombings ...I would have no problems.

FIFA should use commonsense. Was it not FIFA who promised to help make SAfrica more literate when awarding the World Cup? Do they not have UNICEF as a charity? It seems FIFA already decide which charitable causes are more worthy than others.

It's the political element to this which has resulted in FIFA not allowing the poppy on the jersey. While the poppy is seen by you (and many others, granted) as a universal symbol of remembrance, the reality is that it is worn by many people as a symbol to remember "our" war dead. I say "our" as in the person wearing the poppy.

There is a large section of the world who will see the poppy as a purely British/Commonwealth symbol, and its alignment with the Royal British Legion strengthens that perception.

This is on their website..

The Royal British Legion is the nation's custodian of Remembrance, ensuring that people remember those who have given their lives for the freedom we enjoy today. The poppy has become the symbol of Remembrance worn during the weeks leading to Remembrance Sunday and Armistice Day

"Given their lives for the freedom we enjoy today"

That's a political statement, no matter how much we all agree with it.

The funds raised from the sale of poppies doesn't go to the soldiers or families of Iraqi dead from the two gulf wars. It doesn't go to the Argentine veterans of the Falklands war, nor does it go to German, Russian, Japanese veterans etc. This is why FIFA have taken the stance they have.

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Gazton, I uderstand your point and you make it very well.

But the fact remains FIFA do muddy the waters when it comes to politics and football and football isnt neutral. Eg how come Iraq are banned from playing football? How come Denmark won the 1992 Euros?

If this wasnt predominantly British then FIFA would probably be ok. It should be allowed as a message of Rememberence for the Soldiers and nothing else.

It seems a folly that there will be a service before the game and representitive of the armed forces there. That is surely at the same level as having a poppy on the shirt.

What I am most disgusted about is the fact that the Scots, Welsh and N. Ireland have not also pushed for this. Spineless again from these FAs!!

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Gazton, I uderstand your point and you make it very well.

But the fact remains FIFA do muddy the waters when it comes to politics and football and football isnt neutral. Eg how come Iraq are banned from playing football? How come Denmark won the 1992 Euros?

If this wasnt predominantly British then FIFA would probably be ok. It should be allowed as a message of Rememberence for the Soldiers and nothing else.

It seems a folly that there will be a service before the game and representitive of the armed forces there. That is surely at the same level as having a poppy on the shirt.

What I am most disgusted about is the fact that the Scots, Welsh and N. Ireland have not also pushed for this. Spineless again from these FAs!!

I'm pretty certain the Welsh FA did ask to wear poppies on their shirts this weekend.

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Gazton, I uderstand your point and you make it very well.

But the fact remains FIFA do muddy the waters when it comes to politics and football and football isnt neutral. Eg how come Iraq are banned from playing football? How come Denmark won the 1992 Euros?

If this wasnt predominantly British then FIFA would probably be ok. It should be allowed as a message of Rememberence for the Soldiers and nothing else.

It seems a folly that there will be a service before the game and representitive of the armed forces there. That is surely at the same level as having a poppy on the shirt.

What I am most disgusted about is the fact that the Scots, Welsh and N. Ireland have not also pushed for this. Spineless again from these FAs!!

I'm pretty certain the Welsh FA did ask to wear poppies on their shirts this weekend.

Fair enough. I stand corrected on the Welsh. Didnt hear much about it from them. But well done the Welsh.

Did the Scots?

All I heard was the Scots putting it on training tops. They did not even request to put it on the shirts!

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N Ireland aren't playing this weekend, I think.

However, do you not think that the wearing of a poppy on a green Northern Ireland shirt would be seen as political? Think carefully about that one..

Scotland are playing in Cyprus. Maybe I'm ignorant, but I'm not sure if wearing poppies in Cyprus would be seen as divisive?

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N Ireland aren't playing this weekend, I think.

However, do you not think that the wearing of a poppy on a green Northern Ireland shirt would be seen as political? Think carefully about that one..

Scotland are playing in Cyprus. Maybe I'm ignorant, but I'm not sure if wearing poppies in Cyprus would be seen as divisive?

Is the Cypriot football team South Cyprus (Greek) or North Cyprus (Turkish), or a combination of the two (very unlikely that, I would imagine)?

If it's Greek, definitely no problem. Turkish? Probably no problem either, really.

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Yup I agree.

It would be political. I understand as I am half N. Irish myself.

I think the problem me an dyou have Gazton is we view the Poppy differently. I view it as a symbol of rememberence for any soldier or military personnel who has given their life. You appear to view the poppy as rememberence for why they gave their life.

If that makes sense.

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From the fiver:

The Fiver can think of no better way of remembering Great Britain's war dead than sending England's footballers out to play their Spanish counterparts at Wembley. If anything is likely to remind us of the fallen, it's the sight of wave after wave of young Englishmen being picked off by Johnny Foreigner, having launched one ill-advised over-the-top attack too many in a series of depressingly futile attempts to get behind enemy lines.

But for some, a commemorative re-enactment of various historical slaughters soundtracked by the sound of idiots singing about Twelve German bombers is not enough, so the FA, assorted fans and media outlets have decided to mark the sacrifice made by millions sent needlessly to their deaths over the past century by relentlessly squabbling over a football team's right to wear shirts decorated with commemorative poppies during a match against Spain. Not before or after a football match against Spain, but during it, when ... let's face it, England's players will have far more pressing concerns than the absence of an embroidered flower from their sweat-drenched kit.

Anyone lucky enough to have been tripping on acid for the past 48 hours may be unaware that the mother of all stinks has been kicked up over a Fifa rule that forbids England's players from wearing poppies on their shirts during the match against Spain on the grounds that it is a political symbol that could jeopardise "the neutrality of football". Despite having been in place for a long time, it is a rule that singularly failed to perturb the FA in nine previous Novembers of yore; Novembers, coincidentally, when English football's governing body didn't feel the need to generate spurious controversies because of sour grapes over failed World Cup bids, or deflect media attention away from a national team captain who'd become embroiled in an embarrassing race row.

In order to confirm that the wearing of poppies could never be construed as a political act, Great Britain's prime minister, David Cameron, who is a politician, got involved this morning, going so far as to condemn the ban as "outrageous", but not so far as to declare it a great excuse for him to avoid tricky questions about an embarrassing controversy involving his home secretary telling fibs about her role in a scandal undermining national security. Cameron then declared his intention to write an angry letter to Fifa, demanding that England's footballers be allowed to show their respect for all those who have lost their lives in conflict in places like Afghanistan by sporting a symbol of the Islamic republic's lucrative heroin export trade. Whether or not he did this before or after the carefully orchestrated photo op in which he was spotted having a poppy pinned on his lapel by some young people remains unclear.

Ironically enough, one of very few voices of reason to have been heard over the unseemly din of the increasingly bonkers poppy-cock of the past couple of days has been that of Chris Simpkins, director general of the Royal British Legion, the charity which benefits financially from funds raised by the sale of the lapel decorations. "The FA has helped us explore every alternative available and we are satisfied that England will enter the competition knowing they have shown proper respect for our armed forces," he said, apparently satisfied with the planned pre-match Fifa approved minute's silence, during which England's players will wear Fifa-approved training tops featuring poppies.

For hysterical Little Englanders who consider such perfectly adequate marks of respect tantamount to peeing on the Cenotaph, the FA has helpfully issuing a list of other ways Remembrance Day will be marked during England's friendly against Spain, including a commemorative poppy wreath being brought out on the pitch before kick-off, poppies being sold inside Wembley, a giant poppy-shaped blimp being flown in the air above the stadium and all supporters being obliged to change their name to 'Poppy' by deed poll in order to gain access to the ground.

At the time of writing, two bozos from the English Defence League, an organisation not renowned for it's tight grasp on the concept of irony, had muscled in on the farce by clambering up on the roof of Fifa HQ in Zurich to selflessly protest on behalf of those left with no voice as a result of being too dead from fighting against the kind of people who espouse similar views to supporters of the English Defence League. Remembrance of the war dead doesn't get more dignified - well done football, well done.

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Yup I agree.

It would be political. I understand as I am half N. Irish myself.

I think the problem me an dyou have Gazton is we view the Poppy differently. I view it as a symbol of rememberence for any soldier or military personnel who has given their life. You appear to view the poppy as rememberence for why they gave their life.

If that makes sense.

Makes perfect sense and I think the disagreement we are having about it is a microcosm of how the world sees the poppy, if you know what I mean?

Hence, I reckon FIFA are absolutely spot on.

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there are people in Ireland wearing the poppy now on the street

Poppies on display are as rare as hens teeth round my way, though of course it wouldn't surprise me to see that poppy wearing is more common in Dublin ;-) .

Not that it means people don't commemorate the terrible waste of Irish lives fighting other people's wars in my local town. There's a commeration at the local WW1 memorial every 11/11, but participants generally wouldn't sport the poppy.

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