The, he's finally GONE! Tell us your thoughts Thread

[briny_ear]

I'm not saying that consistently finishing that high was easy, I just don't think it was anywhere near as amazing as some on here make out.

Nor was it the utterly average and mediocre achievement that some on here - primarily you, now I come to think of it - claim it to be with tedious regularity.

When you say things like

Getting 6th wasn't really anything new for Villa. In the Premier League era all but one of MON's predecessors either matched or beat his highest finish.

I marvel at your ability to skew statistics.

It's true of course if you look very selectively at the stats but looking at the whole picture, it is clear that all our other premier league managers were inconsistent and left with performance on a downward curve (except GT MkII who only had one full season):

Atkinson - (Out of 22)2nd; 10th; 19th (when sacked)

Little - (Out of 20 ) 4th; 5th; 16th (on resignation)

Gregory - 6th; 6th; 8th; 7th (on resignation)

GT MkII - 16th

O'Leary - 6th; 10th; 16th

MON - 11th; 6th; 6th; 6th

KMac/GH/GMac - 9th

AMc (so far) - 15th

Looking at those stats, only John Gregory really has a record to match MON's and even he was moving gently in the wrong direction.

If you take the results for the past 10 years - a reasonable time frame for an ambitious club - MON's time stands out even more as a period of sustained success that no other manager came near delivering.

I don't think anyone is saying it was wonderful, and the failure to hang onto a top 4 place was disappointing, but it's certainly not as routine as you make out.

[villaajax]

I am trying to work out what exactly MON has to do with the McLeish thread?

Like him or hate him, the club was unified for the most part, we felt like we were going somewhere, we had international class creativity and we played fast paced, counter attacking football. If we ignored the obvious limitations, Villa Park was a fun place to be.

Now, we have a fanbase that is divided, an ownership which has withdrawn from the fans, a CEO who spends his time studying excel spreadsheets and randomly phoning up people he saw on the match of the day for managerial recommendations. The manager is poor and appears to have brought his "take anywhere" managerial blueprint for relegation to the club.

The whole club needs an overhaul, not money, an overhaul. I still back Randy but the end of this season could be the biggest since he took charge of the club. We want that unified feeling back, we want to be entertained, we want a manager who takes responsibility for his errors and who doesn't smart mouth the fans on national television because he just, JUST manages to avoid breaking a defeat record that has stood for god knows how many years.

Most importantly, I want Saturdays back the way they used to be. At the Villa, with my kids, enjoying an entertaining match where we go at it no matter who we are playing.

MON is history, the sooner McLeish is, the better.

Well said!

[barry'sboots]

Do you want to see passion. This is someones facebook status. I want to make it clear this is not my view. He is so angry at what is going on at the club this season.

I think those that STILL say give him a chance are the same people that keep this politically correct rubbish and do-gooders. They are the sort of people that would give a rapist a community order and think the rioters of last year are just youths that are 'really good kids, just bored'. Get a grip, the man has had 28 games to get it right, we are playing the worst football i've ever seen from a V...illa side and is the only manager ever happy to lose 1-0 at home. The bloke is rubbish, tactics are worse. I said when they signed him i won't go back to Villa Park while he's there still and there's absolutely nothing that's even made me think of changing my mind. It's not just his fault, the players have to take some of the blame but Lerner and Faulkner are as bad as him for appointing him when none of us wanted him. FURTHERMORE, if any of the do-gooders try telling me i don't love my club remember this, it hurts me every single week we are playing that i'm not there, scramble frantically through the streams to find our games at home or if i'm on a visit to see my son have people texting me constantly. You people that still say give him a chance are a disgrace to our club, it is you that don't love the club not us. We have so much hatred for him, Lerner and Faulkner because we DO care that the club we love is going down the tube. We're the 1s trying to change it. If you are happy to see shit football and a club run like a circus, head down to B9!!! OK rant over :-D

:shock: :shock: :shock: And I thought cule 4 life was anti Mcleish.

Wow, this guy hates a man who has pumped £200 million of his own money into the club and calls fans who want to give the manager a chance a disgrace. Thank god that we still have a hardcore of 30,000 fans who go to VP because without them and our owner we could be doing a Leeds or Glasgow Rangers.

If you know somebody with a spare £200 million just give Randy a ring. I'm sure he would like to hear from you!

I admit his language is a bit strong - I wouldn't use the hate word etc. - but I agree wholeheartedly with his sentiment.

Whilst I applaud Randy's spend, I look enviously at Peter Coates and the intelligent way that he has built up a club that is considerably smaller and inherently less wealthy than us and there are other examples. Money is not everything, especially if you allow large chunks of it to be wasted and make very poor managerial appointments (footballing and board).

As for the 30k of hardcore fans, be interesting to see what level this is at next year if McTool is still in charge.

[jon_c]

I'm not saying that consistently finishing that high was easy, I just don't think it was anywhere near as amazing as some on here make out.

Nor was it the utterly average and mediocre achievement that some on here - primarily you, now I come to think of it - claim it to be with tedious regularity.

When you say things like

Getting 6th wasn't really anything new for Villa. In the Premier League era all but one of MON's predecessors either matched or beat his highest finish.

I marvel at your ability to skew statistics.

It's true of course if you look very selectively at the stats but looking at the whole picture, it is clear that all our other premier league managers were inconsistent and left with performance on a downward curve (except GT MkII who only had one full season):

Atkinson - (Out of 22)2nd; 10th; 19th (when sacked)

Little - (Out of 20 ) 4th; 5th; 16th (on resignation)

Gregory - 6th; 6th; 8th; 7th (on resignation)

GT MkII - 16th

O'Leary - 6th; 10th; 16th

MON - 11th; 6th; 6th; 6th

KMac/GH/GMac - 9th

AMc (so far) - 15th

Looking at those stats, only John Gregory really has a record to match MON's and even he was moving gently in the wrong direction.

If you take the results for the past 10 years - a reasonable time frame for an ambitious club - MON's time stands out even more as a period of sustained success that no other manager came near delivering.

I don't think anyone is saying it was wonderful, and the failure to hang onto a top 4 place was disappointing, but it's certainly not as routine as you make out.

I agree with your sentiment but for me Gregory tips it, because he placed consistently in the league and won something.

[Mantis]

I'm not saying that consistently finishing that high was easy, I just don't think it was anywhere near as amazing as some on here make out.

Nor was it the utterly average and mediocre achievement that some on here - primarily you, now I come to think of it - claim it to be with tedious regularity.

Where did I say it was a mediocre and average achievement?

The only reason why I come out with it with "tedious regularity" is because people harp on about the three 6th place finishes as if it's some sort of massive achievement, with as you put it, tedious regularity.

I marvel at your ability to skew statistics.

It's true of course if you look very selectively at the stats but looking at the whole picture, it is clear that all our other premier league managers were inconsistent and left with performance on a downward curve (except GT MkII who only had one full season):

Atkinson - (Out of 22)2nd; 10th; 19th (when sacked)

Little - (Out of 20 ) 4th; 5th; 16th (on resignation)

Gregory - 6th; 6th; 8th; 7th (on resignation)

GT MkII - 16th

O'Leary - 6th; 10th; 16th

MON - 11th; 6th; 6th; 6th

KMac/GH/GMac - 9th

AMc (so far) - 15th

Looking at those stats, only John Gregory really has a record to match MON's and even he was moving gently in the wrong direction.

If you take the results for the past 10 years - a reasonable time frame for an ambitious club - MON's time stands out even more as a period of sustained success that no other manager came near delivering.

I don't think anyone is saying it was wonderful, and the failure to hang onto a top 4 place was disappointing, but it's certainly not as routine as you make out.

There are no skewing of statistics there. What I said was a fact. Just because it doesn't suit your agenda doesn't make it any less true.

What you're failing to mention with your assessment of Villa's Premier League managers is that Atkinson and Little both won us major trophies.

How people can rank MON over Atkinson and Little really is beyond me. The hold he has over some people here is ridiculous.

[regular_john]

The three consecutive top 6 finishes has got to be the most overrated "achievement" in Villa history.

Can you explain why?

I am sure Mantis will give his own reply but for what its worth;

1. Winning the League Title is an achievement which we have done numerous times in our lifetime as a club.

2. Winning the FA Cup is an achievement which we have done numerous times in our lifetime as a club.

3. Wining the League Cup is an achievement which we have done numerous times in our lifetime as a club.

4. Winning the European Cup is an achievement which we have done in our lifetime as a club.

5. Winning the European Super Cup is an achievement which we have done in our lifetime as a club.

Finishing 6th three times on the bounce, whilst not to be scoffed at, is hardly an 'achievement' and puts no trophies in the cabinet.

Most of those were pre war, especially with regards to the FA Cup and league.

Pre-WW1 for most of them!

How many do you consider to be most of them pre-WW1 then?

Total league wins = 7

Pre WW1 = 6

Total F.A. Cup wins = 7

Pre WW1 = 5

[KHV]

The three consecutive top 6 finishes has got to be the most overrated "achievement" in Villa history.

Can you explain why?

I am sure Mantis will give his own reply but for what its worth;

1. Winning the League Title is an achievement which we have done numerous times in our lifetime as a club.

2. Winning the FA Cup is an achievement which we have done numerous times in our lifetime as a club.

3. Wining the League Cup is an achievement which we have done numerous times in our lifetime as a club.

4. Winning the European Cup is an achievement which we have done in our lifetime as a club.

5. Winning the European Super Cup is an achievement which we have done in our lifetime as a club.

Finishing 6th three times on the bounce, whilst not to be scoffed at, is hardly an 'achievement' and puts no trophies in the cabinet.

Most of those were pre war, especially with regards to the FA Cup and league.

Pre-WW1 for most of them!

How many do you consider to be most of them pre-WW1 then?

Total league wins = 7

Pre WW1 = 6

Total F.A. Cup wins = 7

Pre WW1 = 5

i blame the Germans for interrupting our dominance of English football

[chappy]

I think Mcleish and Faulkner just egg each other on, a quote from the latter whilst commentating on the reserves for AVTV earlier this week: "You don't want to be winning every game 4, 5, or 6 nil"

[barry'sboots]

I'm not saying that consistently finishing that high was easy, I just don't think it was anywhere near as amazing as some on here make out.

Nor was it the utterly average and mediocre achievement that some on here - primarily you, now I come to think of it - claim it to be with tedious regularity.

Not looked at the stats that hard but I would imagine that when we were finishing 6th under MON we had approximately the 6th highest wage bill and we were spending more than probably all but two or clubs on new signings (albeit we were playing catch up with a few).

It really is hard to compare managers because they were in different periods and operating under different conditions and circumastances.

However, I think MON did about what we should have been expecting given spend etc. whereas Atkinson, Gregory and Little punched well above their weight (spend!) at certain points.

[foreveryoung]

What a great acheivement beating Fulham 1-0 last week. Although Swansea are destroying them at home 3-0. Well done McLeish, well done. Can't wait till next season????

[Big_John_10]

There are no skewing of statistics there. What I said was a fact. Just because it doesn't suit your agenda doesn't make it any less true.

Would you claim Marcus Stewart is as good as Henry because he scored a shit load of goals one season?

[Mantis]

There are no skewing of statistics there. What I said was a fact. Just because it doesn't suit your agenda doesn't make it any less true.

Would you claim Marcus Stewart is as good as Henry because he scored a shit load of goals one season?

What's that got to do with this? Completely irrelevant.

[Big_John_10]

Your logic in this argument is that doing something once is the same as doing something a few times back to back.

So if you think 1 6th place finish is the same as 3 surely you think scoring lots of goals once is just as good as doing it a few times?

Or do you change your stance depending on what it is you're trying to argue?

[imavillan]

All of this in the past stuff is totally irrelevant in this thread....

back on topic.....McCleish is shit full stop

[VillanousOne]

It would be nice to think that if we stuck with McCleish he would come good ala Moyes, Fergie and many other managers who were slow burners but because we instantly use his time at the Scum as a marker for his success and ability then no-one is ever going to give Eck a chance. I'm not saying we should either as i am not really a fan, but i'd prefer to be balanced about it.

The Eck list of reasons we will never give him a chance even if he could possibly do ok for us (possibly).

1) He managed the scum

2) He relegated the scum twice (you'd think that'd be considered a good thing but nooooo)

3) We have won fewer games under him than any manager in decades

4) We play with very little structure or defensive or attacking cohesion so when we lose we go down limping like lame dogs

5) The majority of team selections and subs made have been utterly baffling.

6) He rarely takes the blame

7) He doesn't know his best 11 or how to get the best from Nzogbia

8) He's ginger

Mitigations?

1) We don't know the conditions he managed the scum under, some say he was undermined with signings he didn't want like Zigic and the board meddled too much.

2) We sold Young and Downing and even when we had them we were still awful and had a relegation fight with Houllier

3) Eck had to get rid of players and blood youth

4) He had to repair a number of broken players such as Warnock and Ireland which he has done so pretty well

5) He has given youth a chance

6) His signings have been ok all told, even the Keane deal which proved worthwhile and Hutton looks ok of late (if he could just get some consistency our of Zoggy).

7) He won a cup with the scum, something MON (the f*ck weasel) never got close to.

8) He plays Cuellar (ok i guess he has little choice but if he gives him a new deal and plays him even when Dunne and Clark come back then he surely will endear himself more to us).

My opinion is that I haven't seen anything to make me think Eck is the future, if we survive and he freshens up the squad and continues to rejuvenate players and give youth a chance then maybe..... But ultimately i can't see it.

[Mantis]

Your logic in this argument is that doing something once is the same as doing something a few times back to back.

So if you think 1 6th place finish is the same as 3 surely you think scoring lots of goals once is just as good as doing it a few times?

Or do you change your stance depending on what it is you're trying to argue?

Where did I say one 6th place finish is as good as three?

You're always putting words into people's mouths.

[VillanousOne]

[VamosMiAstonVilla]

Swansea playing some sexy stuff on MOTD at the moment. This could and should have been us. I'd still want us to go for Brendan Rodgers if we could get him. Those banging on about the cost - I can't imagine their team cost much at all. To play that way you only need to be able to pass the ball 10 yards and keep calm. It's a model we should have been replicating seasons ago (and was under Houllier tbf). Instead we are stuck with a deluded dinosaur who thinks we play like Holland :cry:

[briny_ear]

Finishing 6th three times on the bounce, whilst not to be scoffed at, is hardly an 'achievement' and puts no trophies in the cabinet.

Most of those were pre war, especially with regards to the FA Cup and league.

Pre-WW1 for most of them!

How many do you consider to be most of them pre-WW1 then?

Total league wins = 7

Pre WW1 = 6

Total F.A. Cup wins = 7

Pre WW1 = 5

Actually, 5 of the league wins and 3 cup wins were before the end of BOER WARS - the pre-First World War record looks like modern history by comparison!

[nick76]

At the end of the day McLeish is still shit