makouns_grin Posted August 27, 2011 Share Posted August 27, 2011 Was it the club talking of the 5 year plan to achieve the Champions League? Was it the expecations raised by comments about supporting the manager no matter what? Was it the comments about imagining what Eck could do with Randys backing Was it the promise of action some months back that never actually occured? Hi Denis. Can you point me in the direction of where these promises and statements were made etc, disturbing if true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve-67 Posted August 27, 2011 Share Posted August 27, 2011 Was it the club talking of the 5 year plan to achieve the Champions League? Was it the expecations raised by comments about supporting the manager no matter what? Was it the comments about imagining what Eck could do with Randys backing Was it the promise of action some months back that never actually occured? Hi Denis. Can you point me in the direction of where these promises and statements were made etc, disturbing if true. Mate, do your research. The comments are there for all to see. Have a trawl though the General's thread for starters. It is absolutely true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
makouns_grin Posted August 27, 2011 Share Posted August 27, 2011 Was it the club talking of the 5 year plan to achieve the Champions League? Was it the expecations raised by comments about supporting the manager no matter what? Was it the comments about imagining what Eck could do with Randys backing Was it the promise of action some months back that never actually occured? Hi Denis. Can you point me in the direction of where these promises and statements were made etc, disturbing if true. Mate, do your research. The comments are there for all to see. Have a trawl though the General's thread for starters. It is absolutely true. No thanks, i'm not the one making the claims, surely you should be able to back them up? I've seen the General say he will be backed then hasn't, thats the only one i've seen... The word promise cracks me up, especially in football. I promise to play Given every game...injured....shit i cannot play Given every game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve-67 Posted August 27, 2011 Share Posted August 27, 2011 Was it the club talking of the 5 year plan to achieve the Champions League? Was it the expecations raised by comments about supporting the manager no matter what? Was it the comments about imagining what Eck could do with Randys backing Was it the promise of action some months back that never actually occured? Hi Denis. Can you point me in the direction of where these promises and statements were made etc, disturbing if true. Mate, do your research. The comments are there for all to see. Have a trawl though the General's thread for starters. It is absolutely true. No thanks, i'm not the one making the claims, surely you should be able to back them up? I've seen the General say he will be backed then hasn't, thats the only one i've seen... The word promise cracks me up, especially in football. I promise to play Given every game...injured....shit i cannot play Given every game. Actually, I wasn't making the claims, although they are absolutely true. I was simply responding to your request on behalf of Denis. I stick by the point that the board HAVE made promises that they haven't delivered on. They didn't use the word "promise" as far as I can remember but as long as it makes you laugh then I'm cracked up for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denis_B Posted August 28, 2011 Share Posted August 28, 2011 Was it the club talking of the 5 year plan to achieve the Champions League? Was it the expecations raised by comments about supporting the manager no matter what? Was it the comments about imagining what Eck could do with Randys backing Was it the promise of action some months back that never actually occured? Hi Denis. Can you point me in the direction of where these promises and statements were made etc, disturbing if true. Don't think I have to justify anything as was said they are mainly in the GK threads...... I did not use the words PROMISE you did..... I said expectations were raised by these COMMENTS. This is a discussion forum not an opportunity for me to write a discertation with full credits. If I am wrong you show me how Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Posted August 28, 2011 Share Posted August 28, 2011 And of course Denis you are not wrong those claims have all been made, expectations have all been set at unrealistically high levels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted August 28, 2011 Moderator Share Posted August 28, 2011 All those comments Denis mentions were indeed made - three in the Gen's thread and one on Facebook. There are two sides to this coin, and they're both valid. The one side is that over the past 3 Summer windows, and the January windows the net result of transfer spending is a sizeable income. Over the whole of Randy's time, the total is a net outgoing of about 32 million (it's impossible to be precise, because a lot of fees are undisclosed). So in recent year supporters have seen us very much as a selling club, selling off the better players and not replacing them with the same quality, after an initial period when a great deal of money was spent, that took us from down the bottom of the league to consistent top 6 (but no better) with good cup runs, too. The other side is the wage bill. It was allowed to get out of hand. Far, far, too much money went out of the club to players and agents that was simply out of proportion to their contributions to the club and team. That situation has to be addressed, the wages have to be at a sustainable level. Making that adjustment was always going to be painful and involve a period of transition for the team. That's still going on. So how's it progressing? What's good and what's bad? Well, clearly, a significant number of highly paid players have gone - Barry, Friedel, Milner, Young, Downing, NRC, Luke Young and so on. Then again, others have come in - Shay Given, N'Zogbia, Darren Bent, Ireland... and some remain - Beye and Cuellar are not first team regulars, but are surely on high wages. So I suspect that there's still a way to go, yet, to bring down the wage bill. Additionally, of course there's the wages paid to managers, and pay-offs to them and their staff when they left. Those one-off hits will affect the figures. And we don't know what moneys were paid to players leaving, in terms of them claiming all kinds of bonuses and so on, to which they would claim entitlement under their contracts, if they did not formally ask for a transfer. It might seem "wrong" to the likes of us, but that's the mess football is in, generally. So cutting the wage bill - work in progress. Hard for everyone, basically. What's good? - well, it may not be exciting, exactly, but the facilities for corporates (>100 boxes and suites) and to an extent some of the facilities for fans - the Holte suite for example, have been upgraded and enabled more income to be taken on a match day. Sponsorships are much better than a few years ago. These are good things for the club, financially. And the TV deals are much higher than they were. What's bad - ticket prices. Also the way it is reported that sundry minor costs such as the coats in Archie's OP, and SC chairmen's Programmes - various trivial items are being made into a big thing at the cost of goodwill. That's bad. They really messed up with the ticket prices, IMO. To have an increase of around 7% on average, in a recession, whilst selling the best players and appointing a manager who was not exactly wildly popular and who has a record of dull football was both insensitive and counter-productive - particularly when so many games are moved for the TV. It's extremely unfortunate that while doing all this the only communications from the higher echelons of the club have been what looks right now like a deal of bluster from General Krulak and a letter from Randy which looks like an accountant got hold of it, left just the first part untouched, changed the rest and then forged his signature. Paul Faulkner sent a slightly better version out later on. People might comment that as fans we're over-demanding, for ever wanting "spend spend spend" and have no appreciation of the intricacies of running a club. And they'd probably be right. But then the club doesn't exactly go out of its way to inform us, to teach us, to help us understand. The communication we get seems to be of a fairly basic style - bombard us with texts and e mails about shirts, tickets and packages - tell us we're great and our support is great in missives handed down, or the kind of friendly, well meaning tub-thumping from the General. What's utterly lacking is any shade. A form of communication that fills in the gaps between "buy stuff", "we're going to win" and "great fans". There's nothing influential or informative coming out of the club. Stuff gets raised and then quietly forgotten about. For example the Olympics next year - VP dropped out of hosting games because the ground would be being rebuilt at the North stand end. HO'K's plans would be revealed to us., we were told. But nothing.... OK, change your plans to adjust to changing situations, but perhaps having told us one thing, they have a duty to tell us about the change? And it's that same thing with the plans for the team, or for that matter the Club. "Committed as ever" is about the size of the detail we've been given. Well sorry, but the evidence before our eyes says something different. The evidence before our eyes says that we're not aiming for the Champions League places, we're all about financial retrenchment. So talk to us. I'm certain that better and more honest communication could have seen things turn out differently. As it is, because of the lack of proper information us fans have been stridently voicing our displeasure, the Club people feel bombarded and defensive and even less inclined to talk to us, thinking that all we do is unjustifiably moan. What's that saying about before criticising a man, walk a mile in his shoes? - in other words try to understand his situation for a time before you have a go at him. Both the Club and us lot, the fans, need to try that. The club, to their credit have been contacting and speaking to us individually about why we haven't renewed season tickets. I wonder what they'll do with whatever conclusions they draw? Will they tell us? Then again "why haven't you spent 500 quid on us?" might also be seen as a bit "me" focused - you know "why have you stopped paying me money". For football fans, I think, the relationship between fans and their club is not about and certainly should not be about money. Which is where many of us are massive hypocrites, of course. We want them not to just treat us as consumer units from whom they can take their 50 quid for a shirt and 38 quid for a ticket whilst simultaneously we demand that they spend 15 million on a winger. The only way that situation can change is by communicating. We know what we think (I think) and we write it on here and on other sites, we talk to Radio and sometimes even the telly and the local or national press. The club has the odd SCG forum and talks to some fans they know personally, but there's not been enough communication for us masses, that at a level much beyond "buy this thing". Now, more than for a long time, the Club should be a force for a "feel-good factor", but it's not, is it? It was when Randy was spending money, and we loved it. We still admire him greatly for the good things he's done, but currently I think we have every right to be concerned about the future and the plans for the club. They really need to talk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denis_B Posted August 28, 2011 Share Posted August 28, 2011 Bloody hell Blandy - When I said I wasn't writing a dissertation you did it for me - BRILLIANT! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markavfc40 Posted August 28, 2011 Share Posted August 28, 2011 I'm not going to quote it but great post Pete. I'd say put it in the General's thread but I am not sure it would get the attention and subsequent response it deserves which I guess fits in nicely with exactly the problems you highlighted with in your post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juanpabloangel18 Posted August 28, 2011 Share Posted August 28, 2011 I reckon he's gearing up for a sale. Cleaning house. The notion that a Premier League club can be a genuinely sound business investment these days has become ludicrous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coda Posted August 28, 2011 Share Posted August 28, 2011 Lerner has been quoted that he could've made money buying a bond but it wouldn't be as enjoyable as owning a club. I don't think he's aiming to sell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve-67 Posted August 28, 2011 Share Posted August 28, 2011 Blandy, nails on head, several nails, each one firmly smashed home. Thanks for putting exactly how I feel, very eloquently. I hope to God someone from the club has a look at it and does something about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeepDish Posted August 28, 2011 Share Posted August 28, 2011 The question is: Does Lerner have Bank of America stocks? They are now under 10 dollar and are heading toward 0. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeepDish Posted August 28, 2011 Share Posted August 28, 2011 Was it the club talking of the 5 year plan to achieve the Champions League? Was it the expecations raised by comments about supporting the manager no matter what? Was it the comments about imagining what Eck could do with Randys backing Was it the promise of action some months back that never actually occured? Hi Denis. Can you point me in the direction of where these promises and statements were made etc, disturbing if true. Mate, do your research. The comments are there for all to see. Have a trawl though the General's thread for starters. It is absolutely true. No thanks, i'm not the one making the claims, surely you should be able to back them up? I've seen the General say he will be backed then hasn't, thats the only one i've seen... The word promise cracks me up, especially in football. I promise to play Given every game...injured....shit i cannot play Given every game. It was before you were registered at Villatalk, so I can understand you have not seen them. You just have to trust me and a lot of the other posters at Villatalk that the General made them in the Krulak thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Lerwill Posted August 28, 2011 Share Posted August 28, 2011 People might comment that as fans we're over-demanding, for ever wanting "spend spend spend" and have no appreciation of the intricacies of running a club. And they'd probably be right. That's one view, Peter, but I would suggest that in 2006 we simply expected the club to start competing again ... expenditures, certainly, but it seems to me that MON was given too much rope in that regard. And now there's the re-think - to the other extreme. There's something 1984-ish about it. Was Doug so bad? OK, change your plans to adjust to changing situations, but perhaps having told us one thing, they have a duty to tell us about the change? And it's that same thing with the plans for the team, or for that matter the Club. Yes, exactly. I saw this coming in the autumn of 2009 when I was there. I was in a meeting wtih the CEO and CFO when long faces were pulled at me suggesting that perhaps £5,000-£10,000 needed to be spent to restore some of the club's artefacts (in preparation for the talked-of museum - one reason for my being recruited). This was 12 months after Randy had spent £50,000 on a huge number of photographs that I and another had to spend the best part of 15 months sorting out to find little of great value. My sacking - in the light of a sudden brake on ependiture optimism - was not too surprising. The reasons they used to get rid of me were (as has been shown by the tribunal) very spurious - and distasteful. What's that saying about before criticising a man, walk a mile in his shoes? - in other words try to understand his situation for a time before you have a go at him. Yes, but that's a hard standard to live up to, isn't it? The club has the odd SCG forum and talks to some fans they know personally, but there's not been enough communication for us masses, that at a level much beyond "buy this thing". Now, more than for a long time, the Club should be a force for a "feel-good factor", but it's not, is it? It was when Randy was spending money, and we loved it. We still admire him greatly for the good things he's done, but currently I think we have every right to be concerned about the future and the plans for the club. They really need to talk. Well said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maqroll Posted August 28, 2011 Share Posted August 28, 2011 Nice post, Blandy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denis_B Posted August 28, 2011 Share Posted August 28, 2011 Nice insight to what was happening Lerg..... no surprise for some us us Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Lerwill Posted August 28, 2011 Share Posted August 28, 2011 Nice insight to what was happening Lerg..... no surprise for some us us Well, we've even had the situation just now where something up to £1,500 was asked to pay for the restoration of McGregor's grave, and the club passed on that one - supporters are now expected to fund the bill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denis_B Posted August 28, 2011 Share Posted August 28, 2011 Nice insight to what was happening Lerg..... no surprise for some us us Well, we've even had the situation just now where something up to £1,500 was asked to pay for the restoration of McGregor's grave, and the club passed on that one - supporters are now expected to fund the bill. How times have changed........perhaps Doug might do the right thing and pay up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Lerwill Posted August 28, 2011 Share Posted August 28, 2011 Dear Doug ... :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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