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The Welfare System and Children


b6bloke

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villafc2000, for someone complaining about other peoples post you are racking up the number of useless ones yourself.

on the other hand i dont know how the inner workings of the UK welfare system works so i cant really comment on that.

Where im from we were lucky enough to have one of the better welfare systems in the world, and IMO the only way of actually getting a system like that to work is by having the nations population showing some solidarity, which im afraid to say you brits arent to good at. You are all easy to get behind a footie team, and you will all say the UK is the best country in the world etc etc. But when there is talks about raising tax, not frauding away billions of pounds making the revenue of taxes ALOT smaller then they should be, when the people that have it better off gets the question if they would give some of it up for people in greater needs, do you think that they will?

We dont get people who are as filthy rich as you do over here, or well, it happens but its rare. But on the other hand, id say most people live a resonable life, everyone has free health care, welfare, free education and it would take quite a few intentional cock ups before you would end up on the streets as there are "safety nets" so to speak. But it comes at a cost for everyone which is high taxes and so forth, but id say most people are more then happy to pay it as the returns are of good enough value.

the people i really do feel sorry for are not the teenage parents, its their grand children which will be absolutley shafted, growing up in a council flat with parents and grandparents which probably are unemployed, uneducated, poor and im guessing their parental skills arent even close to what they should be, and to be honest you cant blame them, they have undertaken a job which most 25 - 30 year olds arent cut out to do, im not sure on what kind of information and/or aid they get in learning how to raise their kids but im guessing its nothing worth mentioning?

Most teenage parents today still have a relative or grandparent etc that helps out raising the kid, but in a generation or two the teenage parents of today are the ones that will be trying to help their children raise their own kids, which doesnt sound like to much of a good idea to me.

ofcourse there are exeptions to everything, im sure there are some 14 year old mothers out there that do a better job then a 30 year old one.

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...

Most teenage parents today still have a relative or grandparent etc that helps out raising the kid, but in a generation or two the teenage parents of today are the ones that will be trying to help their children raise their own kids, which doesnt sound like to much of a good idea to me.

ofcourse there are exeptions to everything, im sure there are some 14 year old mothers out there that do a better job then a 30 year old one.

Two really, really good points.

Thank you for making them.

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villafc2000, for someone complaining about other peoples post you are racking up the number of useless ones yourself.

on the other hand i dont know how the inner workings of the UK welfare system works so i cant really comment on that.

Where im from we were lucky enough to have one of the better welfare systems in the world, and IMO the only way of actually getting a system like that to work is by having the nations population showing some solidarity, which im afraid to say you brits arent to good at. You are all easy to get behind a footie team, and you will all say the UK is the best country in the world etc etc. But when there is talks about raising tax, not frauding away billions of pounds making the revenue of taxes ALOT smaller then they should be, when the people that have it better off gets the question if they would give some of it up for people in greater needs, do you think that they will?

We dont get people who are as filthy rich as you do over here, or well, it happens but its rare. But on the other hand, id say most people live a resonable life, everyone has free health care, welfare, free education and it would take quite a few intentional cock ups before you would end up on the streets as there are "safety nets" so to speak. But it comes at a cost for everyone which is high taxes and so forth, but id say most people are more then happy to pay it as the returns are of good enough value.

the people i really do feel sorry for are not the teenage parents, its their grand children which will be absolutley shafted, growing up in a council flat with parents and grandparents which probably are unemployed, uneducated, poor and im guessing their parental skills arent even close to what they should be, and to be honest you cant blame them, they have undertaken a job which most 25 - 30 year olds arent cut out to do, im not sure on what kind of information and/or aid they get in learning how to raise their kids but im guessing its nothing worth mentioning?

Most teenage parents today still have a relative or grandparent etc that helps out raising the kid, but in a generation or two the teenage parents of today are the ones that will be trying to help their children raise their own kids, which doesnt sound like to much of a good idea to me.

ofcourse there are exeptions to everything, im sure there are some 14 year old mothers out there that do a better job then a 30 year old one.

Do you mind if I ask which country your from.

Useless points - Which ones do you think are useless...?

What part of the missing 40 -120 billion pounds which could be spent on things to help this country do you think it useless....?

I will point out there is a difference between a debate and complaining.

Hold tight. " Useless points"

"by having the nations population showing some solidarity, which im afraid to say you brits arent to good at"

So ALL BRITS arent good at this, is that what your saying...?

Part of your argument has already happened and a lot of it stems from the 80s. Brittain was absolutely dead in the 80's.

Many of the areas that were affected by unemployment were the areas that relied heavily on industries such as Coal, steel and the Docks (South wales and the North). These industries were shut down over night by Thatcher thus creating mass unemployment.

This mass unemployment has developed to generation after generation of mass unemployment as the industries have not been replaced. There fore communities have been abandoned and forgotten. Thus losing a working ethic which has been passed down through genrations.

Can you expect people to be part of a community, where there community has been taken away from them

If you dont believe me then look at how many Torrie MPs have been voted in to wales and the North of England in the last 30 years.

"when the people that have it better off gets the question if they would give some of it up for people in greater needs, do you think that they will"

It depends if that money belongs to them or not and weather its illegal....! You would be completely naive to think that there are no Taxes evaded and avoided. Which is why the Goverment has predicted the amounts about. I doubt they would make that up...!

After all Inland Tax revenue return forms are some of the best written forms of fiction coming out of this country today...!

"and you will all say the UK is the best country in the world etc etc"

Again I am the one making uselsss points, you are presuming that all Brits will think this, I for one dont think we are the best country far from it, so there goes your theory on that.

weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeey! :lol::lol::lol::lol:

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Obviously the true amount is hard to find, as so many people spend such a lot of their time trying to lie about and conceal it, including contributors to this site.

Lots of VTers with millions squirrelled away in Zurich bank accounts you reckon?! :shock:

Doubt it.

But a couple engaged in helping to cover the tracks, the loyal footman responding to his master's voice, helping to conceal the boss's wealth from the taxman and help them find those little ways round paying their share so that everyone else has to pick up their tab instead, yes, more likely.

What do you reckon?

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"when the people that have it better off gets the question if they would give some of it up for people in greater needs, do you think that they will"?

When the Disabled, youth, elderly and most vulnerable in society are having everything more or less take away from them after a recession which was caused by the richest people in society is this morally and ethically correct...?

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Your looking forward to the new term - good to hear, Dont forget your uniform, dinner money and your hat

Quite an intelligent one then - Nice to see you couldnt answer the questions.

Stick to the x factor page

weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeey

:lol::lol::lol::lol:

Hmmm -very interesting its all gone quiet...!

Could that be because people are finally realizing the biased propaganda of the right wing media which is spooned to them on a daily basis might actually be completely out of proportion with the factual evidence....!

MODs you may as well close this one...!

firstly, that was the points i was getting at beeing useless to this thread, you said other posters werent contributing, do you think these posts are? anyways, you want to continue a discussion reagarding the vailidity of posts you can send me a PM, rather then us hi-jacking someone elses thread.

I never said anything about any 40-120 billion pounds beeing spent on anything.

and no i never said all brits were bad at it, i was speaking in general terms, and if you didnt notice i said in the end that there are exeptions for everything.

and when i was writing about other people giving something up for others i did not speak of stolen money, i was more thinking of terms of increased taxes, there was cries when the VAT went up to 22.5%(i think it was?). what do you think would have happened if there was talks about increasing the VAT to 25%, say, add on a tax around 50% on monthly earnings above say 3000 pounds, its all verry easy saying that the people in need has to recieve more aid, but when someone has to pay for it its a different story...

and i dont think anyone in their right mind would think that its morally or ethically correct to take away aid from people in neeed.

im afraid i think you misunderstood the majority of my post.

EDIT: oh yeh, im from sweden :)

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You’re from Sweeden.....! Sweeden is a fantastic country now and from all the research I have done on it, it is a far better country that the UK in lots of different way it’s ranked as one of the highest standards of living in the world. There is a heck of a lot that the UK could learn from Sweeden .

I perfectly understood your posts. I am not sure you should take everything say so seriously, I would take it with a pinch of salt. In regards to the following posts.

"MODs you may as well close this one"...!

"Hmmm -very interesting it’s all gone quiet"...!

"And you will all say the UK is the best country in the world etc etc".

You quiet clearly stated that we ALL think that - Fact....!

On the subject of taxes

- Do you understand how the UK taxation system works in the UK, Sunbeam...?

"what do you think would have happened if there was talks about increasing the VAT to 25%, say, add on a tax around 50% on monthly earnings above say 3000 pounds, its all verry easy saying that the people in need has to recieve more aid, but when someone has to pay for it its a different story"

The Irony in this is unbelievable but even better laughable.

Before you play the whole “why should the rich pay more card" ( And I must say not a good time to play it when there has been a recession IMO)

Think about this. I am not sure how much you know about the Global recession which has hit the world markets pretty bad recently. This was caused by the reckless irresponsibly of the bankers from Wall Street to London. These Bankers earnt an absolute fortune in comparison to the average working man on the streets, One boss got a payoff of 80 million pounds for Loosing 200,000 peoples life savings and running probably 50, 000 families futures (cheers)....! As a result of this recklessness behaiviour from the bankers, we have seen the some of the worst cuts in History taking place.

My point is this, some claim that it’s the rich that are hard done by and I think many stories like the ones above cant be justified. For example the bankers have had 0 repercussions as they are being protected by Scameron and his chums as they are all jolly good friends and the that’s whose interests they represent the mega rich.

As a result of this, its not the bankers that are having to pay for the recession on no no no..! It’s the:-

- Elderly who will have their winter fuel allowance and benefits cut. I

- It’s the sick; there will be less doctors nurses and staff to look after people who are Vulnerable.

- The youth – Youth club centres will close and University fees will treble.

- Education – Less schools and money will be spent = less Teachers, LSAs TAs.

- Public Sector Workers – Will have to work for longer with worse pensions, pay freezes, job cuts.

All of the above sectors did not cause the recession and yet they have to pay for in some form. So don’t start saying that the mega rich are getting a hard time, when they are still getting record bonuses and mega rich salaries and pretty much living the life of riley.

Add that to the fact that a rich person pays proportionality less tax that his servant and you have my argument.

You still have not answered a number of my questions....!

What do you think is more of a priority trying to cut down on single mothers that have been born in to a life of poverty of earning £60 a week of Benefits? Or trying to find missing billion spent on Tax evasion/avoidance which will help to

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Obviously the true amount is hard to find, as so many people spend such a lot of their time trying to lie about and conceal it, including contributors to this site.

Lots of VTers with millions squirrelled away in Zurich bank accounts you reckon?! :shock:

Doubt it.

But a couple engaged in helping to cover the tracks, the loyal footman responding to his master's voice, helping to conceal the boss's wealth from the taxman and help them find those little ways round paying their share so that everyone else has to pick up their tab instead, yes, more likely.

What do you reckon?

I don't know but I don't reckon. I think that, for example, accountants, or tax accountants, work within the law set out by Gov't on taxes. I think that they don't conceal the boss's wealth but they do help the boss legally do with his or her wealth things which allow tax to be paid at legal levels, but most effectively for the person whose money it actually is.

Personally, I don't think looking badly at the likes of accountants and similar on VT is really going to solve much at all. They're (the ones I know) ordinary folks doing their jobs, legally, and I imagine effectively.

Looking at who gets taxed and how much, is another matter. Looking at what the country spends and on what, too.

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thank you, sweden is alright, but there is good and bad things with all countries, and i think saying that any country is better then the other is to simplify it a bit to much.

The point is not wether they are serious or not, its that people have to sift through posts of spam to find one which actually has something that is relevant to the discussion, maybe im the only one finding this annoying.

when i wrote "And you will all say the UK is the best country in the world etc etc" i was not being literal, i meant in broad terms, brits tend to be very proud of their country compared to other nationals.

you're not quite getting what im trying to say here, when i was talking about raised taxes etc, im not saying that the richer people shouldn't pay more, im saying that they wont. big difference there.

and im not quite sure which questions it is you want me to adress?

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Obviously the true amount is hard to find, as so many people spend such a lot of their time trying to lie about and conceal it, including contributors to this site.

Lots of VTers with millions squirrelled away in Zurich bank accounts you reckon?! :shock:

Doubt it.

But a couple engaged in helping to cover the tracks, the loyal footman responding to his master's voice, helping to conceal the boss's wealth from the taxman and help them find those little ways round paying their share so that everyone else has to pick up their tab instead, yes, more likely.

What do you reckon?

I don't know but I don't reckon. I think that, for example, accountants, or tax accountants, work within the law set out by Gov't on taxes. I think that they don't conceal the boss's wealth but they do help the boss legally do with his or her wealth things which allow tax to be paid at legal levels, but most effectively for the person whose money it actually is.

Personally, I don't think looking badly at the likes of accountants and similar on VT is really going to solve much at all. They're (the ones I know) ordinary folks doing their jobs, legally, and I imagine effectively.

Looking at who gets taxed and how much, is another matter. Looking at what the country spends and on what, too.

but I don't reckon. I think that, for example, accountants, or tax accountants, work within the law set out by Gov't on taxes. I think that they don't conceal the boss's wealth but they do help the boss legally do with his or her wealth things which allow tax to be paid at legal levels, but most effectively for the person whose money it actually is.

When I mentioned Tax avoidance - The figures of 25 billion have actually been set up by the government. Are you trying to say that little money is avoided and evaded every year....! If you think about it when ever you go to the car garage, local trader, electrician, carpenter, builder ect a lot of them ask for cash - I wander why.

The billions of pounds missing was estimated forecast by the government the Tories of all people and that's BEFORE you get in to the Mercy shores of the accountants to hide it...! You can probably treble it if you want to debate Accounts Tax evasion.

Like I have already said if your willing to believe that then fine.

" Some of the best works of fiction being written in this country are from that of inland tax revenue forms....................................!"

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I don't know but I don't reckon. I think that, for example, accountants, or tax accountants, work within the law set out by Gov't on taxes. I think that they don't conceal the boss's wealth but they do help the boss legally do with his or her wealth things which allow tax to be paid at legal levels, but most effectively for the person whose money it actually is.

Personally, I don't think looking badly at the likes of accountants and similar on VT is really going to solve much at all. They're (the ones I know) ordinary folks doing their jobs, legally, and I imagine effectively.

Looking at who gets taxed and how much, is another matter. Looking at what the country spends and on what, too.

Your description covers the remit, or part of it, of accountants. Normal, everyday, ordinary accountants.

It doesn't address, in any respect, the remit of the accountants involved in tax-dodging, which is very much about concealing wealth and who it belongs to, bending rules, setting up sham transactions and internal transfers of money to shift it from where it should be taxed to where it will escape tax, and all the other many, many ways they cheat us all.

Without their activities, tax-dodging would be harder, and less profitable. As it would without the Swiss banks, the tax havens, the corrupt links between legislators and tax thieves.

It's a cancer. And the rest of us are paying the price for it. You too.

Is it because their activities are so invisible that they escape censure, while daft kids nicking trainers get shat on?

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I don't know but I don't reckon. I think that, for example, accountants, or tax accountants, work within the law set out by Gov't on taxes. I think that they don't conceal the boss's wealth but they do help the boss legally do with his or her wealth things which allow tax to be paid at legal levels, but most effectively for the person whose money it actually is.

Personally, I don't think looking badly at the likes of accountants and similar on VT is really going to solve much at all. They're (the ones I know) ordinary folks doing their jobs, legally, and I imagine effectively.

Looking at who gets taxed and how much, is another matter. Looking at what the country spends and on what, too.

Your description covers the remit, or part of it, of accountants. Normal, everyday, ordinary accountants.

Great points...!

This is what I don't understand - How can people defend a system that does not bennifit them.

Absolutely unbelievable.

Lets concentrate the single mum that collect £100 per week in interest...!

It doesn't address, in any respect, the remit of the accountants involved in tax-dodging, which is very much about concealing wealth and who it belongs to, bending rules, setting up sham transactions and internal transfers of money to shift it from where it should be taxed to where it will escape tax, and all the other many, many ways they cheat us all.

Without their activities, tax-dodging would be harder, and less profitable. As it would without the Swiss banks, the tax havens, the corrupt links between legislators and tax thieves.

It's a cancer. And the rest of us are paying the price for it. You too.

Is it because their activities are so invisible that they escape censure, while daft kids nicking trainers get shat on?

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Why do we not instill some control on this?

Well, if the parents are already a lost cause, maybe it's time to focus the effort on the kids who can be salvaged and turned into useful members of society?

New free school to be run by ex-soldiers

A free school staffed entirely by former soldiers is being proposed by a thinktank and backed by a former chief of the defence staff.

The Phoenix free school in Manchester plans to offer students ambitious academic goals, outdoor activities and a demonstration of “martial values” such as “self-discipline, respect and an ability to listen”.

A secondary school for pupils aged 11-18, it is being proposed by the Centre for Policy Studies and backed by Lord Guthrie.

The school has yet to find a location but may be housed on surplus army land, such as a disused drill hall. Its intended head teacher is an army captain, Affan Burki.

Tom Burkard, a research fellow at the Centre for Policy Studies, said it would not be “a glasshouse or sin-bin”.

“I want to ensure that kids are there because they want to be there. You need a stick somewhere – but if you have to use it very often, you’ve lost the battle.”

In a report co-authored with Captain Burki, he added: “All the old remedies for poverty, underachievement and alienation have been tested to destruction. The consequences were starkly before us on the streets of Tottenham and Croydon.

“But before we put troops on the streets we should consider putting them in our schools.”

The team behind the Phoenix school is seeking a partnership with an existing academy sponsor. They have not yet submitted a proposal but hope to open in September 2013 and that their school will be the first in a chain.

Mr Burkard said the reason teachers would all be military was to ensure a “staff room working from a common ethos”, but it would not feature cadet-style training.

Lord Guthrie said: “This would be no sticking plaster for the social problems our country faces. Rather, it would help to address deep-seated problems which are now increasingly apparent.

“If this school is a success, then it should serve as a model for a chain of hundreds of schools.”

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Another good thread ruined.

LOL - Of course....!

:lol::lol::lol::lol:

Just too many posts from one poster. Give people chance to reply and maybe you'll spark debate. There's no need for the desperation, you actually made a couple of pertinent points.

I'm saying this as a tip, not to have a pop. Honest. Although my first post I'm sure came across that way. My apologies, bad month, bad year etc etc.

On the flip side I went off and researched Trident as a result and spent the next 6 hours reading about the history of nuclear weaponry. So cheers! :winkold:

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Another good thread ruined.

LOL - Of course....!

:lol::lol::lol::lol:

Just too many posts from one poster. Give people chance to reply and maybe you'll spark debate. There's no need for the desperation, you actually made a couple of pertinent points.

I'm saying this as a tip, not to have a pop. Honest. Although my first post I'm sure came across that way. My apologies, bad month, bad year etc etc.

On the flip side I went off and researched Trident as a result and spent the next 6 hours reading about the history of nuclear weaponry. So cheers! :winkold:

Cheers, I do tend to go on sometime - Inexperience...!

Apologies,

Up the Villa.

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Why do we not instill some control on this?

Well, if the parents are already a lost cause, maybe it's time to focus the effort on the kids who can be salvaged and turned into useful members of society?

New free school to be run by ex-soldiers

A free school staffed entirely by former soldiers is being proposed by a thinktank and backed by a former chief of the defence staff.

The Phoenix free school in Manchester plans to offer students ambitious academic goals, outdoor activities and a demonstration of “martial values” such as “self-discipline, respect and an ability to listen”.

A secondary school for pupils aged 11-18, it is being proposed by the Centre for Policy Studies and backed by Lord Guthrie.

The school has yet to find a location but may be housed on surplus army land, such as a disused drill hall. Its intended head teacher is an army captain, Affan Burki.

Tom Burkard, a research fellow at the Centre for Policy Studies, said it would not be “a glasshouse or sin-bin”.

“I want to ensure that kids are there because they want to be there. You need a stick somewhere – but if you have to use it very often, you’ve lost the battle.”

In a report co-authored with Captain Burki, he added: “All the old remedies for poverty, underachievement and alienation have been tested to destruction. The consequences were starkly before us on the streets of Tottenham and Croydon.

“But before we put troops on the streets we should consider putting them in our schools.”

The team behind the Phoenix school is seeking a partnership with an existing academy sponsor. They have not yet submitted a proposal but hope to open in September 2013 and that their school will be the first in a chain.

Mr Burkard said the reason teachers would all be military was to ensure a “staff room working from a common ethos”, but it would not feature cadet-style training.

Lord Guthrie said: “This would be no sticking plaster for the social problems our country faces. Rather, it would help to address deep-seated problems which are now increasingly apparent.

“If this school is a success, then it should serve as a model for a chain of hundreds of schools.”

It's a fascinating debate.

The director interviewed on R4 this morning admitted that the soldiers would be required to have a degree in the subjects they teach, though it had to be dragged out of him to the extent that I would look for further proof of this.

So that excludes most soldiers, then.

My experience of the military is mostly of the rejects. Those who served for many years, and were discharged with no transferable skills, no self-respect, no independent thought, no social or practical skills outwith a very narrow band, and who ended up homeless and offenders as a result. They have been poorly served.

I'm sure there are other examples, like Lord Fobblepobble, Chief Lieutenant of Huntingdonshire and Master of the Old Queyntes Hunt, generous donor to the WRVS and the local branch of the KKK. They've done alright.

What is astonishing, utterly beyond belief, is that a political prejudice like that of the boy Gove should come to shape education in the UK. Gibbering, simple fool that he is.

The soldiers have enough to cope with, sorting out their mental health issues and their elevation followed by rejection at the hands of those who govern us.

Let the educators sort out education, and let the soldiers concentrate on their own shabby treatment.

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In Sweeden and a few other Countries they do not have OFSTED - Sweeden is regarded highly by a lot of folk who know Education.

One of the main reasons for this is because Teachers have to have incredibly high qualifications to do the Job, often Masters level.

This produces high Teaching levels.

So getting in ex pat no nonsense bully boy soldiers may work in the sense of they may phyiscally bully students in to good grades....!

The root causes of social injustices need to be tackles, this will not work using bully boy discipline strategies. Thats what the armys for....!

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