Gary Gardner

[sparrow1988]

22 hours ago, a m ole said:

Joining a long list of very promising Villa youth players who failed to push on after getting the big contract and promotion to the first team. There just doesn't seem to be any desire to improve past 'good enough for the subs bench' from our academy graduates.

Something needs to change.

This is a big problem but maybe we are just not producing players that are good enough. 

[BOF]

20 minutes ago, sparrow1988 said:

This is a big problem but maybe we are just not producing players that are good enough. 

I don't think they're getting the opportunity to show it either way. 

Green - Four starts and subbed off twice
RHM, Davis & Blackett-Taylor - No starts between them all season.

Now I do have some sympathy for our situation as a club.  We needed to be using what management believed to be our strongest line-up whilst still trying to be promoted, and our late flurry of wins that brought us briefly back into contention meant zero experimentation, and rightly so.  But part of a player's make-up is his ability to deal with pressure and if you're not even in the team then you aren't getting that chance.  Some players shine under pressure.  I'm still baffled that Lyden hasn't even got a solitary subs appearance this season given that he's the one player in the squad who could give Jedinak a breather without upsetting the shape of the side.  In contrast, and despite the performances on show, Gardner somehow got 18 starts this season, coming off in 10 of those and coming on a further 8 times.  When Lyden came back from injury at the start of March, he scored and won a penalty in a 2-1 win for the reserves away to Wolves.  Twelve days later away to Wigan we started Jedinak at centreback with Gardner alongside Hourihane in midfield.  Lyden didn't even make the bench.

[sparrow1988]

54 minutes ago, BOF said:

I don't think they're getting the opportunity to show it either way. 

Green - Four starts and subbed off twice
RHM, Davis & Blackett-Taylor - No starts between them all season.

Now I do have some sympathy for our situation as a club.  We needed to be using what management believed to be our strongest line-up whilst still trying to be promoted, and our late flurry of wins that brought us briefly back into contention meant zero experimentation, and rightly so.  But part of a player's make-up is his ability to deal with pressure and if you're not even in the team then you aren't getting that chance.  Some players shine under pressure.  I'm still baffled that Lyden hasn't even got a solitary subs appearance this season given that he's the one player in the squad who could give Jedinak a breather without upsetting the shape of the side.  In contrast, and despite the performances on show, Gardner somehow got 18 starts this season, coming off in 10 of those and coming on a further 8 times.  When Lyden came back from injury at the start of March, he scored and won a penalty in a 2-1 win for the reserves away to Wolves.  Twelve days later away to Wigan we started Jedinak at centreback with Gardner alongside Hourihane in midfield.  Lyden didn't even make the bench.

I fully agree with everything that you have said there. Lyden is really one that baffles me too, particularly that he has not been involved in any way, shape or form. RHM's absence was a bit self-imposed due to the contract situation and then he unfortunately got injured and was out for a while. The club's situation definitely hasn't helped as we've been struggling big time over the last few seasons and this season too but not to the same extent. As you say some players shine under pressure. I just wonder whether the youngsters are showing enough in training as I think the club's situation would in theory filter down to the training pitch i.e. pressure situation. I haven't seen them in the underage games or the reserves (I've seen bits and bobs in highlights to suggest that they have talent) so can't really comment on their individual talents and attributes. However, we can all see that there are places up for grabs in the senior team/squad, Gardner being one example along with Bacuna ,Gabby etc., but none of them seem to be pushing through for whatever reason, be it reluctance from mangement to risk them or a lack of ability/just not up to it - Green being the exception. You would think that even with the season over from our point of view since before EasterISH, with the exception of Blues, that it would be the ideal time to give them some game time to "show us what you can do". However, we haven't seen any of them. Not even making the bench. 

[mikeyp102]

1 hour ago, BOF said:

I don't think they're getting the opportunity to show it either way. 

Green - Four starts and subbed off twice
RHM, Davis & Blackett-Taylor - No starts between them all season.

Now I do have some sympathy for our situation as a club.  We needed to be using what management believed to be our strongest line-up whilst still trying to be promoted, and our late flurry of wins that brought us briefly back into contention meant zero experimentation, and rightly so.  But part of a player's make-up is his ability to deal with pressure and if you're not even in the team then you aren't getting that chance.  Some players shine under pressure.  I'm still baffled that Lyden hasn't even got a solitary subs appearance this season given that he's the one player in the squad who could give Jedinak a breather without upsetting the shape of the side.  In contrast, and despite the performances on show, Gardner somehow got 18 starts this season, coming off in 10 of those and coming on a further 8 times.  When Lyden came back from injury at the start of March, he scored and won a penalty in a 2-1 win for the reserves away to Wolves.  Twelve days later away to Wigan we started Jedinak at centreback with Gardner alongside Hourihane in midfield.  Lyden didn't even make the bench.

Green got injured and hasn't been fully fit since.

RHM firstly refused to sign a contract so rightfully not selected. Then when he did sign he was injured.

Blackett Taylor is very young and only on bench due to injuries. Probably not ready for first team.

Lyden one reserve game in a year and then wasn't fit enough to feature for reserves again.

[BOF]

10 minutes ago, mikeyp102 said:

Green got injured and hasn't been fully fit since.

RHM firstly refused to sign a contract so rightfully not selected. Then when he did sign he was injured.

Blackett Taylor is very young and only on bench due to injuries. Probably not ready for first team.

Lyden one reserve game in a year and then wasn't fit enough to feature for reserves again.

Green was uninjured for long enough to be a sub 11 times though.  Usually 3rd sub, and thata doesn't include the times he went unused.  RHM yes I know about his contract situation.  Lyden had more than 1 (he had 4) in a year but he was being touted even before his recent injury & comeback so the mystery is more longer term.   As for Blackett-Taylor (and Davis), you miss my point.  He is the only one from the U23s who was brought up and used in this manner.  There are 13 outfield players in the U23s older than CBT who never got a sniff either.  The discussion is over youth not getting a chance. If anything you've backed up my point on that.  But as I say, I think the club's ambition to get out of this league asap is probably playing a negative part in that.

[Delphinho123]

He's garbage. Can't remember one good game he has played for us. Shame, as he was supposed to be the next big thing. 

[a m ole]

4 hours ago, BOF said:

Green was uninjured for long enough to be a sub 11 times though.  Usually 3rd sub, and thata doesn't include the times he went unused.  RHM yes I know about his contract situation.  Lyden had more than 1 (he had 4) in a year but he was being touted even before his recent injury & comeback so the mystery is more longer term.   As for Blackett-Taylor (and Davis), you miss my point.  He is the only one from the U23s who was brought up and used in this manner.  There are 13 outfield players in the U23s older than CBT who never got a sniff either.  The discussion is over youth not getting a chance. If anything you've backed up my point on that.  But as I say, I think the club's ambition to get out of this league asap is probably playing a negative part in that.

We should be encouraging more short term loans (or long if we have the depth in their position to cope). Get them playing competitive senior football, where the result of the match really means something. League 1, League 2, we could surely find someone who will give them proper game time 

[OutByEaster?]

4 hours ago, BOF said:

The discussion is over youth not getting a chance.

I don't think it is - I think it's about youth deserving a chance .

For me, there isn't a single player in our current U23 team that I see having a long term future for us, and that includes RHM. Green is looking a player and having made his breakthrough will continue to get chances once fit I think, but our best prospects are 14 and 15 years old - the group between them and the first team just aren't good enough to warrant game time in my opinion.

 

[VillaChris]

On ‎01‎/‎05‎/‎2017 at 12:48, a m ole said:

Joining a long list of very promising Villa youth players who failed to push on after getting the big contract and promotion to the first team. There just doesn't seem to be any desire to improve past 'good enough for the subs bench' from our academy graduates.

Something needs to change.

When you look back our best crop was 2007 lot.

Two have become premier league winners (Cahill and Albrighton who was actually part of that group but didn't properly break through until 2010) and Davis has developed in a very decent premier league midfielder and also his country.

None of the three ever fully showed their best for us for very different reasons.

I've said before but we're too slow to send them on loan. Spurs are always loaning out their young players, Townsend went on loan about 8 times so even if they don't break through they can still get plenty of clubs interested and a decent price.

Start of the season Coventry wanted to sign Hepburn-Murphy on loan. Why didn't we let him go given we we had about 6 strikers on our books at that point.

Instead he's played about 3 games this season and is now getting hyped after his new deal despite most of us not really knowing if he's any good or not.

Green's a little different, I expect him to play a prominent role for us next year.

[Demitri_C]

I'm in favour of getting rid, if we can 2-3m for him I'd be delighted

[villa89]

37 minutes ago, Demitri_C said:

I'm in favour of getting rid, if we can 2-3m for him I'd be delighted

Might be hard to sell him now after he got a new contract but I agree we need to sell him. I would doubt other championship clubs would be willing to take the contract on and/or give him a pay rise that he might want from a move.

[KHV]

21 hours ago, OutByEaster? said:

I don't think it is - I think it's about youth deserving a chance .

For me, there isn't a single player in our current U23 team that I see having a long term future for us, and that includes RHM. Green is looking a player and having made his breakthrough will continue to get chances once fit I think, but our best prospects are 14 and 15 years old - the group between them and the first team just aren't good enough to warrant game time in my opinion.

 

Our under youth set up has been on the decline for some time, the under 23's are very poor indeed

[Demitri_C]

1 hour ago, villa89 said:

Might be hard to sell him now after he got a new contract but I agree we need to sell him. I would doubt other championship clubs would be willing to take the contract on and/or give him a pay rise that he might want from a move.

Hopefully we were not stupid enough to pay him significant more wages. If we did be very silly of wyness and xia

[sir_gary_cahill]

19 hours ago, VillaChris said:

When you look back our best crop was 2007 lot.

Two have become premier league winners (Cahill and Albrighton who was actually part of that group but didn't properly break through until 2010) and Davis has developed in a very decent premier league midfielder and also his country.

None of the three ever fully showed their best for us for very different reasons.

I've said before but we're too slow to send them on loan. Spurs are always loaning out their young players, Townsend went on loan about 8 times so even if they don't break through they can still get plenty of clubs interested and a decent price.

Start of the season Coventry wanted to sign Hepburn-Murphy on loan. Why didn't we let him go given we we had about 6 strikers on our books at that point.

Instead he's played about 3 games this season and is now getting hyped after his new deal despite most of us not really knowing if he's any good or not.

Green's a little different, I expect him to play a prominent role for us next year.

Cahill wasn't part of the 2007 team, I expect Suliman, Sarkic, Hepburn-Murphy and Green to all break through in the next year or so and become part of the first 11

[Guest av1]

On 2017-5-1 at 11:13, HeyAnty said:

Sort of think the likes of Bacuna and him getting a lot of game time past while is to put them in the shop window in a view to shipping them out at any cost.

 

I would argue that if we are trying sell them, keeping them out of the shop window would be more advisable. 

[BOF]

On 02/05/2017 at 18:41, OutByEaster? said:

I don't think it is - I think it's about youth deserving a chance .

For me, there isn't a single player in our current U23 team that I see having a long term future for us, and that includes RHM. Green is looking a player and having made his breakthrough will continue to get chances once fit I think, but our best prospects are 14 and 15 years old - the group between them and the first team just aren't good enough to warrant game time in my opinion.

 

I meant to come back to this!  Yes I agree that deserving a chance must always be a part of the discussion.  I'm not suggesting you throw them in for the sake of it just to prove you're giving youth a chance.  I do however think that our need to go up this season, and our subsequent rescue job were scenarios not conducive to using or testing out youth, so I think there's an element of both at play.

On 02/05/2017 at 18:41, OutByEaster? said:

our best prospects are 14 and 15 years old - the group between them and the first team just aren't good enough to warrant game time in my opinion.

Do tell.  Any names we should be keeping a particular eye on?

[TRO]

15 minutes ago, BOF said:

I meant to come back to this!  Yes I agree that deserving a chance must always be a part of the discussion.  I'm not suggesting you throw them in for the sake of it just to prove you're giving youth a chance.  I do however think that our need to go up this season, and our subsequent rescue job were scenarios not conducive to using or testing out youth, so I think there's an element of both at play.

Do tell.  Any names we should be keeping a particular eye on?

Its an old chesnut that one.

• I agree with OBE they should be pulling up trees in the reserves and FORCING their way in, that shows the necessary character required for the first team.
• However, I also believe the first team is where you develop the finer skills, so I am kinda arguing with myself, they need first team game time to get used to their surroundings and other players.
• I am not a mollycoddler, so I think they have to be thrown to the wolves at some stage, sink or swim......its a mans game they have to show manly qualities.

There are so many factors to consider, but thats what the manager gets paid for......tricky decisions.

[OutByEaster?]

4 hours ago, BOF said:

Do tell.  Any names we should be keeping a particular eye on?

Names are tricky to come by for the young un's, but from a couple of accounts now I've heard there are one or two very good ones coming through.

 

[HanoiVillan]

4 hours ago, OutByEaster? said:

Names are tricky to come by for the young un's

I've heard of negligent parenting, but failing to name them by adolescence is a new low even for Birmingham. 

[Wezbid]

On 03/05/2017 at 16:31, KHV said:

Our under youth set up has been on the decline for some time, the under 23's are very poor indeed

I think it's fair to say that the success of the youth team as a whole can be used to judge individuals though. Most youth players don't make it from the majority of the top clubs.

It's alright smashing the likes of Chelsea/Utd/Arsenal etc youths in the next gen and such but that could just be a good side rather than any players able to step up as a top quality first teamer. 

As a result, if the youth squads aren't up to scratch it doesn't mean that there aren't a few who could be potential class. 

I understand that it's easy to mix the 2 and we're all wanting the next big thing but patience is a virtue. 

Whoever was raising Southampton in the early 2000's is a boss though. Walcott, Ox-Chamberlain, Bale and a few more, Crystal Palace too south the likes of Clyne and Zaha. 

Great players can lurk anywhere though. That said, Villa have a great catchment area and maybe more should be expected but it's a slow process and players looking great can just tail off and not go any further despite looking the bomb at their youth level.