Xela Posted February 17, 2019 Share Posted February 17, 2019 2 hours ago, Dr_Pangloss said: Not really. She was well above the age of criminal responsibility, 'radicalised' or not you have to be a certain type of person to fall for those ideas and those people are absolutely a danger to society. She would have endorsed mass murder and likely complicit in some fairly heinous crimes. She should be returned to UK and tried, her child to be placed into the system as she's not a fit mother, it could be an opportunity to make an 'example out of her', I wouldn't be against that, but has to be weighed up among other options. Exactly. She's not even repentant now, she only wants to come back as IS have pretty much been removed from all their bases in Syria. If not she would still be there and aiding and assisting a terrorist regime who hate western ideals. As a UK citizen if she does make it to the border then she should be admitted and detained under an appropriate terrorism offence. However, we should not actively waste any resources on bringing her back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr_Pangloss Posted February 17, 2019 Share Posted February 17, 2019 9 minutes ago, Xela said: Was there any ever instances of Brits aligning themselves with Nazi Germany in the second world war? If so what was the punishment? Just interested to see if that situation ever arose. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted February 17, 2019 VT Supporter Share Posted February 17, 2019 16 minutes ago, Xela said: Was there any ever instances of Brits aligning themselves with Nazi Germany in the second world war? If so what was the punishment? Just interested to see if that situation ever arose. There were a few. There was actually a British SS unit. And a few people got convicted of collaboration and so on. Quite a few were executed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterms Posted February 17, 2019 Share Posted February 17, 2019 31 minutes ago, Xela said: Was there any ever instances of Brits aligning themselves with Nazi Germany in the second world war? If so what was the punishment? Just interested to see if that situation ever arose. Something here about that., with one undercover agent having identified 500 Nazi sympathisers. Quote ...By the end of the war, Roberts was providing information on more than 500 people who were, to different degrees, actively sympathetic to Nazis. Some, like Brown, were former supporters of Oswald Mosley’s British Union of Fascists, but many weren’t. Among them was one of the country’s most senior diplomats, William Strang, who privately viewed “the Bolshevists and the Jews as the two great enemies of all that was decent”. A few, like Brown, were willing to act on their beliefs, communicating information to a man they thought was a German spy, and proposing sabotage and even assassination missions. ... MI5 was so horrified by what Roberts had uncovered, and the ease with which he had uncovered it, that a decision was made to suppress his findings. The operation was left out of the reports sent to Winston Churchill, and was barely alluded to even in MI5’s top secret internal history. When other wartime glories of British intelligence, from Bletchley Park to Double Cross, were laid before the public, Roberts’ work was forgotten. None of those he had identified were prosecuted, or even told that they had been the victims of a sting. Strang went on to run the Foreign Office, and then sit in the House of Lords... 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted February 17, 2019 Share Posted February 17, 2019 1 hour ago, Xela said: Was there any ever instances of Brits aligning themselves with Nazi Germany in the second world war? If so what was the punishment? Just interested to see if that situation ever arose. Yes, plenty, lots. Both here and overseas there were SS units and spies and sympathisers and everything in between. But that's a slightly different thing for me, that's a genuine existential threat where we were directly involved in a fight for survival. Things like Syria are a bit more one step removed. They can create terror and and murder but at no point are they ever going to take over the country. It was the likes of Jim Matthews referenced above that I was thinking of. He's perfectly capable of causing havoc or blowing up the Turkish ambassador, but we're collectively more relaxed about that as it isn't directly against 'us', even if it's perfectly capable of impacting on some of us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted February 19, 2019 VT Supporter Share Posted February 19, 2019 Shamima Begum's family lawyer has said she's had her citizenship revoked, which is wasn't aware was a thing, and if it is it almost certainly shouldn't be. Good old Tories. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted February 19, 2019 Moderator Share Posted February 19, 2019 7 minutes ago, Chindie said: Shamima Begum's family lawyer has said she's had her citizenship revoked, which is wasn't aware was a thing, and if it is it almost certainly shouldn't be. Good old Tories. Doesn't it depend on whether she has dual citizenship? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jim Posted February 19, 2019 Share Posted February 19, 2019 Good. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted February 19, 2019 Share Posted February 19, 2019 I think you have to have another option as nobody can be made stateless. With no research at all, I wonder if they've decided the Dutch terrorist husband can take her in? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest av1 Posted February 19, 2019 Share Posted February 19, 2019 19 minutes ago, bickster said: Doesn't it depend on whether she has dual citizenship? You would have thought that she has given the home office decision, though I guess I'm giving the home office more credit than they deserve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest av1 Posted February 19, 2019 Share Posted February 19, 2019 On 17/02/2019 at 11:36, Xela said: Exactly. She's not even repentant now, she only wants to come back as IS have pretty much been removed from all their bases in Syria. Agreed, there was very little remorse in her interview. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jim Posted February 19, 2019 Share Posted February 19, 2019 32 minutes ago, bickster said: Doesn't it depend on whether she has dual citizenship? She does, Bangladeshi. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xann Posted February 19, 2019 Share Posted February 19, 2019 On 17/02/2019 at 11:31, Xela said: Was there any ever instances of Brits aligning themselves with Nazi Germany in the second world war? If so what was the punishment? Just interested to see if that situation ever arose. Lord Haw Haw was hanged, but Edward VIII was made Governor Of The Bahamas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coda Posted February 19, 2019 Share Posted February 19, 2019 She named her son after some jihadi warlord. **** hell just call him Trevor until you get back to Blighty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted February 19, 2019 Share Posted February 19, 2019 Just now, coda said: She named her son after some jihadi warlord. **** hell just call him Trevor until you get back to Blighty. If it's one of the ones they called The Beatles then I really really want it to be Ringo. Ringo Begum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OutByEaster? Posted February 19, 2019 Moderator Share Posted February 19, 2019 Good to see that the corporate lobbyists in Washington finally seem to making progress under this President on the important business of selling loads and loads of expensive and profitable nuclear stuff to the Saudis. Apparently, the country with the world's largest oils reserves needs lots of nuclear power stations for erm...energy and isn't interested in making bombs at all, oh no, perish the thought. Anyways, the money's good and I'm sure we'll all be fine. Hurrah! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted February 19, 2019 Share Posted February 19, 2019 (edited) LOL (should probably add that while that made me laugh, my actual feeling is that giving Sajid Javid the power to arbitrarily strip dual-nationality citizens of their UK citizenship is an absolute abomination) Edited February 19, 2019 by HanoiVillan 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterms Posted February 19, 2019 Share Posted February 19, 2019 On 17/02/2019 at 14:11, chrisp65 said: Yes, plenty, lots. Both here and overseas there were SS units and spies and sympathisers and everything in between. But that's a slightly different thing for me, that's a genuine existential threat where we were directly involved in a fight for survival. Things like Syria are a bit more one step removed. They can create terror and and murder but at no point are they ever going to take over the country. It was the likes of Jim Matthews referenced above that I was thinking of. He's perfectly capable of causing havoc or blowing up the Turkish ambassador, but we're collectively more relaxed about that as it isn't directly against 'us', even if it's perfectly capable of impacting on some of us. Taking the point a little further, I wonder what is the legal position of eg RAF personnel who were helping the Saudis with targetting their assaults in Yemen, which included things like killing wedding parties. We are not at war so I assume that set of laws doesn't apply. So these are criminal acts? Should they be tried abroad, or returned here? Can the Home Secretary strip them of citizenship as punishment for their actions? I guess they can't plead youth, or naivete, or being groomed. Presumably it was a conscious choice. Or is it I was only obeying orders? I was powerless to resist. Obviously nothing's going to happen to them, because...well, I'm not quite sure why. But anyway. What are the similarities and differences with the Begum case? Or mercenaries in a private army? Or apparently well-meaning individuals like the one I referenced earlier, who wanted to fight IS and defend the people under attack, but who was charged with terrorist offences? 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted February 19, 2019 Share Posted February 19, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, bickster said: Doesn't it depend on whether she has dual citizenship? Her family's lawyer says she doesn't. Reading between the lines and looking at the appeal that the Home Secretary lost last year about two other deprivation orders made of two British citizens of Bangladeshi descent, it might be that his lawyers have made the argument to him that she was automatically a dual national because she was born to Bangledeshi citzens and the Bangladeshi part hadn't lapsed (unlike the two in the appeal case) as she isn't yet 21. All that's a guess, though. He may not have taken any advice from anyone other than his leadership campaign manager. Edited February 19, 2019 by snowychap 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted February 20, 2019 Moderator Share Posted February 20, 2019 13 hours ago, peterms said: Taking the point a little further, I wonder what is the legal position of eg RAF personnel who were helping the Saudis with targetting their assaults in Yemen... Obviously nothing's going to happen to them, because...well, I'm not quite sure why. But anyway. What are the similarities and differences with the Begum case? Or mercenaries in a private army? Or apparently well-meaning individuals like the one I referenced earlier, who wanted to fight IS and defend the people under attack, but who was charged with terrorist offences? Because it didn't happen. So there are no similarities with the Begum case. Or with mercenaries in a private army, or with people wanting to go and fight ISIS. The RAF personnel in KSA are seconded UK military personnel conducting their roles legally, quaintly under an oath to the Queen, and the UK support to KSA is under a government to government contract/agreement. They aren't and haven't been helping the Saudis with targetting wedding parties or anything else in Yemen. SO, that;'s why there's no chance at all of any of them being in a legally problematic position and nothing's going to happen to them. But then you know that anyway. Still, chuck it in there, eh? why not. Muddy the water a bit. Everyone loves a conspiracy and cover up theory. Bit of false news never hurt anyone, did it? And it sort of makes an argument look stronger if it's got a bit of a guilt-heartstrings puller in it, even if it is untrue. A different question to wonder would be "if the RAF personnel (and others from the UK) were removed from KSA, or if the UK embargoed exports etc.what would be the consequences? Would it lead to better targetting, fewer casualties and an end to the civil war in Yemen? What would be the consequences more widely? How would it affect diplomatic efforts to end the war, how would it affect influence with KSA in that direction? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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