snowychap Posted January 29, 2011 Share Posted January 29, 2011 Is there any serious argument that can be made that the West isn't more concerned with its own diverse interests than in democracy, freedom, and economic well-being of those in the Middle East? (not that the latter are necessarily not aligned with the former) In the west, probably not. Others on here would be able to give a much more informed view than I am on whether it's possible that people in North Africa/Arabia and elsewhere think that the West's apparent belief in democracy and those other things inform its decisions more than pure self-interest. The point I was making was not one of whether we in the west believed the hype of our own governments (in spreading freedom, &c.) but how quickly that flimsy facade may crumble and how what remains (both the self-interest and the apparent duplicity) may further inflame negative attitudes towards the west. Perhaps they aren't necessarily unaligned but evidence in the west would suggest that they may be an encumbrance to the real driving force of interest. :winkold: (Hat tip - shamocracy ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villa_shere Posted January 29, 2011 Share Posted January 29, 2011 awful time for my mate to pick a flight out to egpyt, he flew out last monday :s Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted January 29, 2011 Share Posted January 29, 2011 Grauniad's reports seem to suggest that there is not much sign of the army or the police on the streets (in Cairo) and that it's a dangerous situation of 'thugs' and citizens protecting themselves.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OutByEaster? Posted January 29, 2011 Moderator Share Posted January 29, 2011 I should like to confess my ignorance. Can someone explain the perspectives here, Mubarak's government would apppear to be the bad guy, but I'm not sure why - what sort of government is it, what are its faults? The people are rising up, but who are the people, what do they want, what do they believe in? At the moment, the news is like a Michael Bay film, there are loads of exciting shots of burning buildings and mobs and tanks - but I can't help but feel I've missed out on the plot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted January 29, 2011 Share Posted January 29, 2011 I'm most definitely no expert but I think that it goes that Mubarak took over after the fall of El-Sadat under 'temporary' emergency rule (though I think the emergency rule was in place before, too). It's a dictatorship, dissent is normally suppressed (not pleasantly - political prisoners unsurprisingly are ten a penny) and, as usual in most lands, the workers suffer. What do they want? I think there was a list, actually. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OutByEaster? Posted January 29, 2011 Moderator Share Posted January 29, 2011 It sounds then, like a 'normal' revolutionary situation then and so I guess, the issues of the region and the influence they might have on the outcome are concerns about how this ends rather than reasons why it began? There doens't seem to be a religious or global-political reason for the uprising, it sounds like it's purely national politics, is that right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted January 29, 2011 Share Posted January 29, 2011 It sounds then, like a 'normal' revolutionary situation then and so I guess, the issues of the region and the influence they might have on the outcome are concerns about how this ends rather than reasons why it began? There doens't seem to be a religious or global-political reason for the uprising, it sounds like it's purely national politics, is that right? Well, I think the consensus currently is that it's a sort of 'nationalist' uprising (but one that was unlikely to have even begun had it not been for the events in Tunis(ia)). Having said that, there are other powers waiting in the wings to see how things play out, no doubt. Whether they are waiting because they were not looking for an insurrection themselves or because they are biding their own time is for conjecture. I think the issues in the region (i.e. North Africa at the moment) are part of a catalyst (the apparent domino) but it's interesting that things seem to have bypassed other countries (libya for example). As the telebox keeps stressing, Egypt is (one of?) the most populous countries in the region, change there (in conjunction with change elsewhere) might well be very significant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PompeyVillan Posted January 29, 2011 Share Posted January 29, 2011 Are 'the people' organised or is it simply just a civil unrest type of movement? I too feel as if I've missed the plot in this one. Do the Egyptians want democracy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AVFC-Prideofbrum Posted January 29, 2011 Share Posted January 29, 2011 Are 'the people' organised or is it simply just a civil unrest type of movement? I too feel as if I've missed the plot in this one. Do the Egyptians want democracy? Fighting over the pyramids. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClaretMahoney Posted January 30, 2011 Share Posted January 30, 2011 The Egyptians want a democracy, not some fraudulent one which is basically the main issue at stake. Loads of people from all walks of society claim that the elections were fixed. He's been in power for 30 years and people feel he hasn't bettered the country in any way. His family is uber rich, and his son has been touted as the next president. Plus, anytime you have 70% of a population surviving on $2 a day, this is bound to happen. People are unhappy, and this is what happens. Hate to make it sound so simple but yea, that's what it boils down to. Mubarak has had his chance to make things better about 4 or 5 years ago when there were protests, yet nothing got done, so this is the result. Hopefully shit gets sorted out fast cause I want to hear from my friends what the F is going on, tired of reading the same shit on BBC and seeing the same images on each news network. Also last year Mubarak banned shisha smoking, which pissed off a lot of people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leviramsey Posted January 30, 2011 VT Supporter Share Posted January 30, 2011 (Hat tip - shamocracy ) Traveshamockery Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leviramsey Posted January 30, 2011 VT Supporter Share Posted January 30, 2011 As the telebox keeps stressing, Egypt is (one of?) the most populous countries in the region, change there (in conjunction with change elsewhere) might well be very significant. As I understand it, there are two main centers of Arab world intellectualism: Baghdad and Cairo. If there are any Arab countries capable of anything approaching Western- (or even Turkish- for that matter) -style liberal democratic capitalism, then Iraq and/or Egypt are the ones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted January 30, 2011 Share Posted January 30, 2011 (Hat tip - shamocracy ) Traveshamockery Chuckle central. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted January 30, 2011 Share Posted January 30, 2011 As the telebox keeps stressing, Egypt is (one of?) the most populous countries in the region, change there (in conjunction with change elsewhere) might well be very significant. As I understand it, there are two main centers of Arab world intellectualism: Baghdad and Cairo. If there are any Arab countries capable of anything approaching Western- (or even Turkish- for that matter) -style liberal democratic capitalism, then Iraq and/or Egypt are the ones. I'm not sure where you're going with it? :? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leviramsey Posted January 30, 2011 VT Supporter Share Posted January 30, 2011 (Hat tip - shamocracy ) Traveshamockery Chuckle central. Burglefickle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leviramsey Posted January 30, 2011 VT Supporter Share Posted January 30, 2011 As the telebox keeps stressing, Egypt is (one of?) the most populous countries in the region, change there (in conjunction with change elsewhere) might well be very significant. As I understand it, there are two main centers of Arab world intellectualism: Baghdad and Cairo. If there are any Arab countries capable of anything approaching Western- (or even Turkish- for that matter) -style liberal democratic capitalism, then Iraq and/or Egypt are the ones. I'm not sure where you're going with it? :? Just a general observation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leviramsey Posted January 30, 2011 VT Supporter Share Posted January 30, 2011 Massive pic FAIL + Spelling FAIL taken from the Committee to Protect Journalists Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted January 30, 2011 Share Posted January 30, 2011 Just a general observation. Furry muff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted January 30, 2011 Share Posted January 30, 2011 That's when they said, "No." Isn't it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leviramsey Posted January 30, 2011 VT Supporter Share Posted January 30, 2011 That was when Egyptian ISPs (with a few possible exceptions... apparently some of the five-star hotels and the Cairo stock exchange are still up) stopped publishing BGP routing information. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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