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The Arab Spring and "the War on Terror"


legov

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Sometimes it is uncomfortable to see ones jejune opinions blown out of the water, but it is delightful when it is done this thoroughly. :clap:

First, thanks for the new word! Secondly you are spot on about us naively cheering the Arab Spring as a new dawn, it was more like the shepherd's red sky in morning. I can't remember my own comments when this thread started up (and have been too proud to check) but expect they were pretty delusional. It's easy for the emotion of hope to trump reason and culturally that seems to be a very western affliction. There were solid practical reasons for supporting autocracy in the Arab world and arguably the majority of Arabs benefited from it (security, basic services, education etc), certainly the alternative reality we are seeing now would suggest so.  

Worth noting that the good old Taliban (who seem rather gentle chaps now compared to the local alternatives) have stormed and taken Kunduz in northern Afghanistan (it's 6th largest city), the greatest Taliban victory since 2001. 1000 fighters vs 7000 Afghan National Security Forces who eventually pulled back. Whether they hold it or not isn't really important for now, the writing's on the wall and Afghanistan can soon be chalked up as another failure. The only 'hope' is that when the Taliban do eventually regain power they keep IS out of the place, quite different from the objectives more than 450 UK soldiers died for.

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Sometimes it is uncomfortable to see ones jejune opinions blown out of the water, but it is delightful when it is done this thoroughly. :clap:

Surely only in the relative comfort of not having to live under an actual dictatorship (however much we may have problems with our own government(s) in the west), can the support for collective action by the people to overthrow tyrants in other countries be pooh-poohed as jejune opinion mostly because the resultant outcome doesn't tally well with our own strategic interests (even if they have also caused further huge problems for those who rose up in the first place).

I find it appalling but not unsurprising that the supposed lesson to be learned from this episode is that we should be supporting despots and autocrats (and thus be complicit in the murder and repression that they carry out) because of how bad it may otherwise turn out.

 

p.s. I acknowledge that I'm in danger of pooh-poohing a pooh-pooh in the first para. :)

Edited by snowychap
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Sometimes it is uncomfortable to see ones jejune opinions blown out of the water, but it is delightful when it is done this thoroughly. :clap:

Surely only in the relative comfort of not having to live under an actual dictatorship (however much we may have problems with our own government(s) in the west), can the support for collective action by the people to overthrow tyrants in other countries be pooh-poohed as jejune opinion mostly because the resultant outcome doesn't tally well with our own strategic interests (even if they have also caused further huge problems for those who rose up in the first place).

I find it appalling but not unsurprising that the supposed lesson to be learned from this episode is that we should be supporting despots and autocrats (and thus be complicit in the murder and repression that they carry out) because of how bad it may otherwise turn out.

 

p.s. I acknowledge that I'm in danger of pooh-poohing a pooh-pooh in the first para. :)

I wasn't pooh-poohing the belief that liberal democracy is more desirable than an oppressive dictatorship, I was pooh-poohing my rather narrow view of Russian interests in the area.

 

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@Maqroll - Unlikely I reckon. Putin is certainly trying to goad the US (giving them 1 hours notice to "clear" Syrian airspace before beginning strikes yesterday was a clear slap) but he doesn't want a direct confrontation. If the US and Russia had a balls out fight in the air America would mince them and Putin knows that.  They will sit down together today or tomorrow to work out deconfliction strategies and - grumbling from Washington aside - that should be that.  He is trying to show he can piss further than Obama, not piss on him. 

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Is the Afghan army a sort of private force for the U.S now?

I wonder how many independent PF's are working around the world, and what their capabilities are (boots on ground, intel, armour units) and what their costs are?

Have the UK ever used PFs?  Such as Gurkhas?

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Is this kind of stuff a job to you AWOL?  How do you know so much about what's going on?

AWOL=Andy McNab

Having met AWOL he's more likely to have shagged the goat herder rather than be captured by one  :)

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Surgical strike

The medical charity MSF says at least three of its staff were killed in the Afghan city of Kunduz after a clinic was hit by an air strike on Saturday.

US forces were carrying out air strikes at the time. The Nato alliance has admitted the clinic may have been hit.

MSF says more than 30 staff are unaccounted for. The hospital had 105 patients at the time.

There has been intense fighting in Kunduz since Taliban fighters swept into the northern city on Monday.

It was the first major urban centre to fall to the Taliban in 14 years.

Medecins Sans Frontieres (MSF) said its clinic was hit several times during "sustained bombing and was very badly damaged" at 02:10 local time (22:40 GMT) on Saturday.

A spokesman for US forces in Afghanistan, Col Brian Tribus, said: "US forces conducted an air strike in Kunduz city at 02:15 (local time)... against individuals threatening the force.

"The strike may have resulted in collateral damage to a nearby medical facility."

...more on link

Edit: A little bit more on this:

The medical charity MSF says air strikes on its hospital in the Afghan city of Kunduz continued for more than 30 minutes after US and Afghan authorities were told of its location.

Edited by snowychap
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So, this has all escalated quite a bit hasn't it. Probably more aimed at AWOL this one but- What I don't quite understand is; what's everyone's end game here? What are Russia, the Taliban and IS truly hoping to achieve? And I guess more importantly, will they achieve it? 

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