The Arab Spring and "the War on Terror"

[Marka Ragnos]

 

Those are two very different cases, but the similarities are striking. What the pictures don't show is that the heavy westernization and modernizations movements in both places are part of what prompted the big reaction. Afghanistan's factional infighting has been its albatross for decades if not centuries, and the Shah's policies alienated the Islamists in Persia. In both cases, the "westernization" proved to be the window dressing of an elite upper-class who, in Iran's case at least, eventually fled. The pictures of western-looking women seem on the surface almost inspiring, but it actually reminds me of Britain's first years in America. A famous Elizabethan engraving of the great American Indian princess Pocohantas from her (fatal) journey to England, which proved poisonous to her. In fact, back in Virginia, the English were butchering Indians -- and getting butchered in kind. Virginia was a bit like the 17th century's Afghanistan, with Jamestown as Kabul. Ask the Indians now how that worked out for them?

 

Edited April 1, 2015 by Plastic Man

[Marka Ragnos]

The model wasn't sustainable - a 'western' model imposed by military bullies. This meant an educated elite that wanted real liberal western values and an oppressed majority that saw the elite overlords taking the piss. 

Ha! Beat me to it!

[maqroll]

Nuke deal with Iran is positive. Glad that despite Netanyahoo's attempts to sabotage it, it was successful. Good deal for the masses of Iranians who suffer unjustly under sanctions. Hopefully something to build on diplomatically. 

[coda]

Nuke deal with Iran is positive. Glad that despite Netanyahoo's attempts to sabotage it, it was successful. Good deal for the masses of Iranians who suffer unjustly under sanctions. Hopefully something to build on diplomatically. 

 

Surprised by this. I thought Iran was next on the list for "democracy".

[OutByEaster?]

 

Nuke deal with Iran is positive. Glad that despite Netanyahoo's attempts to sabotage it, it was successful. Good deal for the masses of Iranians who suffer unjustly under sanctions. Hopefully something to build on diplomatically. 

 

Surprised by this. I thought Iran was next on the list for "democracy".

 

Well, now they've signed up to a huge public agreement which we can claim they've broken if we feel the need to democratise them back to the stone age.

[Marka Ragnos]

 

 

Nuke deal with Iran is positive. Glad that despite Netanyahoo's attempts to sabotage it, it was successful. Good deal for the masses of Iranians who suffer unjustly under sanctions. Hopefully something to build on diplomatically. 

 

Surprised by this. I thought Iran was next on the list for "democracy".

 

Well, now they've signed up to a huge public agreement which we can claim they've broken if we feel the need to democratise them back to the stone age.

 

 

Back to the stone age?  Iran are already doing a pretty good job of playing the part of throwbacks.  Yes, a deal would be great, but I have no illusions about the dark power of the Islamist factions in Persia. 

 

 

Extrajudicial terror

Iran has the world's highest rate of execution by stoning. No one knows how many people have been stoned but at least 11 people are in prison under sentence of stoning, according to an Iranian human rights lawyer, Shadi Sadr.

Sadr, who has represented five people sentenced to stoning, said Iran carried out stonings in secret in prisons, in the desert or very early in the morning in cemeteries. "Pressure from outside Iran always helps. The Islamic Republic pretends that they don't care about their reputation, but they do care a lot," added Sadr, who lives in exile in Britain.

In 2010, the case of Sakineh Mohammadi Ashtiani, a woman sentenced to death by stoning for alleged adultery, caused international outcry. The authorities have suspended her sentence but she remains in prison. Officials withdrew stoning from a new draft penal code last year, but have since reinserted it.

Stoning is also a legal punishment for adultery in Mauritania, a third of Nigeria's 36 states, Pakistan, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Somalia, Sudan, the United Arab Emirates and Yemen.

 

 

 

Edited April 3, 2015 by Plastic Man

[chrisp65]

I think I'd rather be executed by random concoction of chemicals to try and mimic a lethal poison than by stoning. I like the idea of writihing for a while not quite dead until I'm given a second or third injection in my groin to induce a heart attack.

 

So I'd be better off being executed in the U.S. than Iran.

[OutByEaster?]

 

 

 

Nuke deal with Iran is positive. Glad that despite Netanyahoo's attempts to sabotage it, it was successful. Good deal for the masses of Iranians who suffer unjustly under sanctions. Hopefully something to build on diplomatically. 

 

Surprised by this. I thought Iran was next on the list for "democracy".

 

Well, now they've signed up to a huge public agreement which we can claim they've broken if we feel the need to democratise them back to the stone age.

 

 

Back to the stone age?  Iran are already doing a pretty good job of playing the part of throwbacks.  Yes, a deal would be great, but I have no illusions about the dark power of the Islamist factions in Persia. 

Ah. More a comment on the traditional method of introducing democracy into any nation that gets a little too independent of the US than a comment on the current state of Iran. 

[Wainy316]

I think I'd rather be executed by random concoction of chemicals to try and mimic a lethal poison than by stoning. I like the idea of writihing for a while not quite dead until I'm given a second or third injection in my groin to induce a heart attack.

So I'd be better off being executed in the U.S. than Iran.

No one has denied that a lot of Texans also belong in the Stone Age.

[coda]

 

 

Nuke deal with Iran is positive. Glad that despite Netanyahoo's attempts to sabotage it, it was successful. Good deal for the masses of Iranians who suffer unjustly under sanctions. Hopefully something to build on diplomatically. 

 

Surprised by this. I thought Iran was next on the list for "democracy".

 

Well, now they've signed up to a huge public agreement which we can claim they've broken if we feel the need to democratise them back to the stone age.

 

 

Is that the plan? They won't be able to push the "wiped off the map" lie any longer.

[Marka Ragnos]

 

 

 

Nuke deal with Iran is positive. Glad that despite Netanyahoo's attempts to sabotage it, it was successful. Good deal for the masses of Iranians who suffer unjustly under sanctions. Hopefully something to build on diplomatically. 

 

Surprised by this. I thought Iran was next on the list for "democracy".

 

Well, now they've signed up to a huge public agreement which we can claim they've broken if we feel the need to democratise them back to the stone age.

 

 

Is that the plan? They won't be able to push the "wiped off the map" lie any longer.

 

 

I don't understand. 

[CarewsEyebrowDesigner]

Iran is an odd country.

[trekka]

Surprised by this. I thought Iran was next on the list for "democracy".

Well, now they've signed up to a huge public agreement which we can claim they've broken if we feel the need to democratise them back to the stone age.

Is that the plan? They won't be able to push the "wiped off the map" lie any longer.

I don't understand. 

Clicky!

[Marka Ragnos]

Clicky!

Thanks, but I understood the "wiped off the map" bit, of course. It's the "they" who are "pushing the lie" idea that lost me.

[blandy]

 

 

 

 

Surprised by this. I thought Iran was next on the list for "democracy".

Well, now they've signed up to a huge public agreement which we can claim they've broken if we feel the need to democratise them back to the stone age.

 

Is that the plan? They won't be able to push the "wiped off the map" lie any longer.

 

I don't understand. 

 

Clicky!

 

 

"the regime occupying Jerusalem must vanish from the page of time"

is what he said. Which isn't the same thing at all.

[trekka]

 

"the regime occupying Jerusalem must vanish from the page of time"

is what he said. Which isn't the same thing at all.

 

 

Ah, my bad.  Apologies for not quoting the article.

[Marka Ragnos]

 

 

 

 

"the regime occupying Jerusalem must vanish from the page of time"

is what he said. Which isn't the same thing at all.

 

 

Are you being ironic? And no, I'm not being ironic in asking about your irony, just so you know. Because the difference between "vanishing from the page of time" (wouldn't it be pages, by the way?) and "wiping off the map" seems pretty, erm, nominal, at least in the context of crazy things that crazy Iranian theocrats say. But then, maybe you were, ironically, sort of suggesting that?

 

Edited April 3, 2015 by Plastic Man

[OutByEaster?]

In fairness, the current incarnation of Israel shouldn't exist in its current format. There should be a redrawing of those borders, a return to those agreed by everyone on the planet (with the exception of the US and Israel) in 1976, a recognition of the Palestinian state, a return of occupied territories, an end to the siege of Gaza and the gradual extermination of Palestinian people. His principle is correct.

 

You can extrapolate his intended method and I think it's pretty likely that he's not looking to get it done in the way I'd like it done, I suspect he more than hints at a nasty conflict and the exact same genocidal, invasive practices that he's wanting removed, but, on it's own, and said by someone from a Western political organisation, without the weight of emotional and physical involvement in the region, "the regime occupying Jerusalem must vanish from the page of time" is a statement that I would find myself agreeing with.

[blandy]

 

 

 

 

 

"the regime occupying Jerusalem must vanish from the page of time"

is what he said. Which isn't the same thing at all.

 

 

Are you being ironic? And no, I'm not being ironic in asking about your irony, just so you know. Because the difference between "vanishing from the page of time" (wouldn't it be pages, by the way?) and "wiping off the map" seems pretty, erm, nominal, at least in the context of crazy things that crazy Iranian theocrats say. But then, maybe you were, ironically, sort of suggesting that?

No I wan't being ironic. I was trying to highlight the difference between vanishing a regime from the pages of time and "wiping Israel off the map"

 

One implies getting rid of an authoritarian government and the other implies nuking a country.

Yes the bloke's a massive tube, no I don't share his views, but I felt it important to point out that the use by some of the more dangerous US and other politicians of a misquote, to perhaps deliberately make Iran look bad/mad is massively unhelpful. I mean I'm sure there are a few in the US senate who would like to get rid of various leaderships around the world, but even they wouldn't say they wanted to wipe Nicaragua/North Korea/Grenada/Iraq/North Vietnam etc. off the map.

 

That's hopefully made it clearer?

[Awol]

Funny thing, Arabs generally hate the US but their rulers love them. Persians generally love the US but their rulers hate them.

Give it 5 years post the lifting of sanctions and Iran will be a very different place - IMHO.