Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
AVFC-Prideofbrum

Lionel Messi

Recommended Posts

Not really, they come at the end of a long season for Messi, almost invariably as Barca go far in every competition. Usually he's played 50+ games by the time the tournament comes around.

Also his national team had an insane coke fiend in charge for most of his career, which can't help. I can't really be arsed to argue tbh, there will never be a consensus GOAT and with something as subjective as that it's arrogant to think nobody can argue any opinion other than your own.

Still, I don't really accept that winning the WC is a prerequisite for consideration (or that not winning it is some kind of black mark on your career).

Long season isn't a great excuse. Most top players go through a long season and it doesn't stop them performing, see: Ronaldo at Euro 2012.

I do agree that winning a World Cup or something isn't necessary. Otherwise that means the 'best player ever' has to come from one of few countries.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Long season isn't a great excuse. Most top players go through a long season and it doesn't stop them performing, see: Ronaldo at Euro 2012.

Ronaldo doesn't exactly run himself into the ground though does he? :lol:

If it doesn't end in a shot for him he's not interested, it's not really comparable to what Messi does in a season IMO. Their goal returns are similar but the chances they create, passes they make and ground they cover are not.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Saying Messi needs to win the world cup to be the GOAT is like saying Federer needs to win the Olympics singles or Tiger Woods needs to win the World match play.

No it isnt. And FWIW, Jack Nicklaus > Tiger Woods.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Saying Messi needs to win the world cup to be the GOAT is like saying Federer needs to win the Olympics singles or Tiger Woods needs to win the World match play.

No it isnt. And FWIW, Jack Nicklaus > Tiger Woods.

You're right. Federer and Woods winning is completely down to them whereas Messi is reliant on his national team being good. ;)

I don't really have an opinion on Nicklaus vs Woods but Golf is a much bigger game these days and the standard is a lot higher IMO. Nicklaus took up golf really late by today's standards (age 10), I'm not saying that proves anything but it suggests to me that it wasn't the same game.

As an aside, if Messi had decided to play for Spain instead and been the star of this golden generation would that have made him GOAT despite making no difference to his ability as a footballer?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Using the World Cup argument is just a bit silly to me, Argentina have a bit of a mess of a team, full of wingers, strikers and attacking midfielders. A bunch of big names that haven't ever really clicked. And on top of that international tournaments are almost as much down to luck as they are footballing ability.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Also another thing to add, is that Defending was a lot worse when the likes of Maradona and Pele played. Teams were less organized.

Really? Defenders could kick the shit out of forwards with impunity back then. It was only really in the late 1990s that thuggish defending got clamped down on and it has only really been the past five or six years where the art of the 'reducer' has been all but removed of the game. That has hugely benefited attacking play. It's good for the game, but it doesnt mean that everybody today is suddenly brilliant. Messi would have been less effective if he had been afforded as little protection as, say, Marco Van Basten.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I agree about defenders but would Messi opting for Spain instead and winning multiple international trophies make him GOAT? Anyone?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Also another thing to add, is that Defending was a lot worse when the likes of Maradona and Pele played. Teams were less organized.

Really? Defenders could kick the shit out of forwards with impunity back then. It was only really in the late 1990s that thuggish defending got clamped down on and it has only really been the past five or six years where the art of the 'reducer' has been all but removed of the game. That has hugely benefited attacking play. It's good for the game, but it doesnt mean that everybody today is suddenly brilliant. Messi would have been less effective if he had been afforded as little protection as, say, Marco Van Basten.

Defenders try to hack him down These days, and he still Skips past them. Its all based on opinion I guess. And like Maradona, Messi would have humiliated the defenders if he played back then.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As an aside, if Messi had decided to play for Spain instead and been the star of this golden generation would that have made him GOAT despite making no difference to his ability as a footballer?

Without wanting to open a whole can of worms all over myself, if Messi played for Spain he'd look much better. Not saying Messi isn't an outstanding player, he is one of the best ever. But I think Xavi and Iniesta help put him on another level. It's telling that they won everything Internationally also while Argentina really struggle by their own standards.

I think trophy cabinet is just not a great way of judging things overall, which is what you also seem to be saying. Players like Wes Brown, Phil Neville and John O'Shea have won lots and played pretty big parts in doing so, doesn't mean they're quality.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

After a night out on the lash with his Barca team mates, Lionel Messi eyes up a cute blonde, they get chatting and he then invites her back to his five star hotel room.

They kiss and laugh as things start to heat up, she leans over him and whispers "Prepare yourself for me" she says as she winks "I'm just going to slip into something a bit more... Sexy..." And walks seductively into the en-suite bathroom.

To her horror when she returns, she finds him laying stark naked on the bed with two Spaniards either side of him.

"What the hell is going on!!!" she shouts.

"I'm sorry" Messi replies "I can't perform without Xavi and Iniesta!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I think trophy cabinet is just not a great way of judging things overall, which is what you also seem to be saying. Players like Wes Brown, Phil Neville and John O'Shea have won lots and played pretty big parts in doing so, doesn't mean they're quality.

Couldn't agree more (in the case of team sports at least). Cristophe Dugarry and his WC medal is pretty damning in that regard.

Edit - As amusing as that joke is in Messi's defence several times a season he picks the ball up inside his own half, beats everyone and chips the keeper. He could have Laurel and Hardy behind him and that would still be the case.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think trophy cabinet is just not a great way of judging things overall, which is what you also seem to be saying. Players like Wes Brown, Phil Neville and John O'Shea have won lots and played pretty big parts in doing so, doesn't mean they're quality.

Couldn't agree more (in the case of team sports at least). Cristophe Dugarry and his WC medal is pretty damning in that regard.

Edit - As amusing as that joke is in Messi's defence several times a season he picks the ball up inside his own half, beats everyone and chips the keeper. He could have Laurel and Hardy behind him and that would still be the case.

Yep, I'd at least put him on a par with Dalian Atkinson.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
He's not even the best player in La Liga. Ronaldo has a much inferior team at both club and International level, in my opinion. He produces far more than Messi for country when it matters and is obviously brilliant at club level.

You can't be serious? 'Much inferior' ...

They've both had mixed success internationally, both however let down by their team although Argentina do in fact have the potential to win a big tournament, Portugal will struggle. Argentina thankfully now have a coach that seems to know what he's doing and Messi has flourished.

2010 World cup was the only tournament they've both played in since they became 'superhuman' and neither did great although Messi overall play did get him shortlisted in top 10 players of WC and if you watch his highlights, he was pretty much part of every goal for Argies.

2014 will be a great occasion and I think Argentina will do very well.

'best ever' argument will never come to an agreed answer, although it does seem he has pretty much cemented his place at least in the 'top 3' as long as his form doesn't alarmingly dip.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I see young Lionel is now el capitano for Argentina. I shall be putting a moderate sum on them to win the World Cup.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Also another thing to add, is that Defending was a lot worse when the likes of Maradona and Pele played. Teams were less organized.

Bollocks.

Though seeing your username of 1991 I'm putting it down to inexperience.

Nowadays top class defenders have to be able to pass the ball and fullbacks have to overlap the winger.

20 years ago, a defender could level a forward or a winger receiving the ball with their back to goal. No such thing as a red card for a tackle from behind. (Some could still play football as well mind you - Ask an old 'un about the late great Jimmy Dugdale)

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

you just have to see the tackles Pele and Maradona got in 66 and 82 to see they how tough defending was. if them tackles occured today players would probably be banned for up to 10 games

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
if them tackles occured today players would probably be banned for up to 10 games

And so they should, if it was a potential leg breaking challenge should be stamped out

Look at Vlaar's takeld against Bale, was a classic case of great 'tough tackling', and he didn't get banned for 10 games.

The game has changed, move on.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

To be fair they do try to foul Messi but it's easier said than done. There are some compilations on youtube, well worth watching

Anyway did anyone see his freekick under the wall for the Argies the other day? Magnificent. It looks like this season he will mostly be scoring amazing freekicks. I think it's his fourth.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's all set up for him to have a stormer in Brazil. Of course things can go wrong, he could pick up an injury, but fingers crossed he'll drag them to the trophy like Maradona did, then there'll be no more debates

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...
Â