The Night The Dream Died - Why Martin Left IMO

[Neil]

I will always wonder how much of this piece would exist if the score was reversed at the weekend. And how many people agreed with it then.

[RichardCanning]

Sorry BOF, but I have to disagree with this article.

Would appear my saying you can have the credit for the article has stuck Bri :-)

You might be able to forgive him two seasons ago for failing to finish in the Top4, but when you get two chances, you can't forgive him

Thanks for telling me what I can and can't do

2. He could have thrown all the resources into the League last season, but also focused on the Cups

&

3. He was unable to show faith in players that he brought to the club to rotate them through the squad, he could of played these palyers in the domestic cups comps, but he didn't.

When MON played a reserve side in the Europa league and got knocked out people went a little nuts, in addition in our cup exits to Leicester and QPR were criticised. So he was damned if he did and damned if he didn't. Furthermore I enjoyed the day at Wembley and there is no conclusive evidence that we would have finished 4th without the final that day in addition had it not been for the guy with a serious lack of bottle in the middle we'd have a trophy in the cabinet.

O'Neill is a very good Manager, but also a smart one. I for one don't believe he could take us any further

This I agree with based on the fact we don't have the money to spend to overtake city.

I will always wonder how much of this piece would exist if the score was reversed at the weekend. And how many people agreed with it then.

I always wonder IF someone had pulled a red card at Wembley how much of the vitrole aimed at Martin wouldn't exist as we'd have a trophy in the cabint. It's a mighty big word is if and if you are suggesting this is a knee jerk reaction you'd be wrong!

[Tomaszk]

No man is bigger than AVFC and no man is irreplacable but I think we're about to find out just how good a manager Martin was by how difficult it will be to replace him.

Martin is a good manager.

It will be hard to replace him.

However I very much doubt that the next man in will be given the funds Martin was. He will have to be a lot more balanced with his expenditure, in the end I think Martin threw a wobbly when he was told to control his spending. He wasted millions and millions of pounds because of his obsession with buying players he knew inside out, which led to this.

The next man in is so important, but I think whoever it is is fighting a losing battle, he needs to do a great job to finish high up the league.

[nik986]

MoN is gone, we can speculate on his reasons, but why bother. Lets move on, get behind the new manager whoever it is and support the Villa. This is our club, long before Martin joined us.

[John]

Thanks for this one Richard. Some sound observations and several well argued replies.

We must accept that money has taken over the game and that the days of players being loyal to a club are past. What Chelsea begun Mercenary City have continued to do but to an even larger degree.

Martin did a hell of a lot for our football club and will be missed. Randy has also done a great deal for our club and is still here.

The loss of Barry & Milner was hard to take and the cash backed rise of clubs like Chelsea and Mercenary City has made top 4 a much more difficult target for us and for others (such as Everton) who have like us been near to a top 4 place in recent years. We do not like it but the clubs with unlimited wealth have no care of what the likes of us may think about the path they have chosen to take.

But, for me top 4 remains something we can still aim for in the coming years although it will clearly be very difficult to get there and that is even more so the case when it comes to talk of taking the title again. But, we should not write off our hopes of either just yet. I for one did not see us as potential league champions 10 years before we won the thing in 80-81 as our realistic target back then was getting back into the old second division. As a club that has grown into a top 6 club in the last couple of years we are in a much better situation in 2010 than we had been in 1970. Our realistic target is now to hang onto a top 6 place where it was promotion 40 years ago. But with the right man appointed as manager to add to what we still have as our owner we may yet find ourselves fourth or even higher at the end of a season between now and 2020. Optimistic yes and it is not easy to be that just now. But as history shows you never know. :winkold:

[Hev]

Love him or hate him, some years ago, Tom Ross said that Sky and money would ruin the game

[Cracker1234]

Love him or hate him, some years ago, Tom Ross said that Sky and money would ruin the game

It really isn't rocket science.

[Damocles]

The one thing that the history of football has shown, is that there is always something 'ruining the game', usually concerning money. You can go all the way back to the 19th century and 'shamatuerism' and hear the exact same arguments that we hear today.

The fact remains that as long as people will pay money to watch football, either by going to the ground or by buying a Sky TV subscription, the money will continue. It isn't necessarily a bad thing either. Look at the standard of English football pre Sky and post Sky, look at the increased crowds as the game's appeal was broadened from the traditional working class roots (obviously, post Taylor report for comparison), look at the variety of football games we get to watch now - Brazilian, Argentinian, Spanish, Italian, German, Scottish, English, Japanese and Australian leagues are easily found to watch and any fan of football as a game should appreciate watching different styles and different players.

The problem seems to be that many fans become disillusioned as they were under an impression that some players were somehow loyal to their clubs in front of themselves. I can only really think of Le Tissier who ever put the well being of a club in front of his own ability to win trophies and earn money; something which has left him with nothing to show for his two decades of football as one of the league's talented players, apart from a highlight reel, a few sparse caps and worship from Southampton fans.

[lexicon]

Don't forget Shearer Damocles. He pretty much had an open invitation to go to Man Utd but chose to stay at Newcastle.

[TRO]

I actually disagree with most of that.

with Martin O'Neills Tenure it was like the curates egg good in parts.

you cannot talk about the good bits, if you are conveniently prepared to leave out the bad bits.

Martin O'Neill ran the club, in footballing terms and none of his decisions could ever be challenged without a falling out seems like concensus was not one of Martins plus points. That is all well and good when you are winning championships or playing the kind of swashbuckling football that would suggest that you are only around the corner from winning the title like Ron Saunders,but we were not. I am not going to belittle the acheivement of 6-6-6, but equally our home wins of 7-7-10-8 had a kind of negating effect on things.

we played a kind of style that didn't rely on keeping the ball or passing it with aplomb and it manifested itself in inconsitency..... just as we wer going on a bit of a run an abrupt end would appear as quickly as it started.

The quality of individual players play did not improve that much for me the odd player like Milner or young did show some obvious improvement, but most of the rest did'nt seem to improve like under some previous managers.

It is extremely difficult to fend off the kind of wages offered by Man city....I'll bet similar conversations were going on with the Liverpool fans the other night, by not signing Barry.

Martin O'Neill was not a bad manager far from it a good manager, yes reasonably so..... a great manager never.

Money is not the problem here, we have had it and mismanaged most of it in my view.... some of it has been well spent and ironically most of that was done in Martins early stay with us, so you could say the quality of signings gradually got worse not better.....if that is so, funny description of progress.

Players leave for More money....that is an established fact, but they also leave if they think nothing is going on, not much chance of getting anywhere, Barry and Milner could well of thought that.The vibes from the training ground that i've heard don't fill you with the joys of spring for the previous regime......perhaps the discipline approach took him as far as he could go.

If Martin O'Neill felt for the club, like he portrayed, he would not of walked out.Many managers like Moyes get denied money, but they don't just up and out....especialy 5 days before kick off to maximise the damage, it was mooted on the sunday supplement that some of the journo's had an inclin back in march... if thats the case this is all the more spiteful.He went because he was being questioned and that did'nt sit comfomtable with him.

Right now, it will look like, we can't even attract a manager as good as O'Neill, when lower placed clubs like Fulham, Blackburn have no difficulty.

while every club seems to be looking for King Midas, i think they are missing a trick.

A manager with a coherent and logical plan, with a footballing pedigree, who has an obvious eye for a player, can set up a meaningful scouting network and has belief in himself.... is out there waiting for someone like us to give them a chance in the same way Jose Mourinho did at porto.... of course we will lose him at some stage, but he will do a lot of good along the way.

The people who say we will never do this that or the other are wrong.

If we choose the right man to come in and get started Randy is the right man to do it with....I don't believe Kevin Macdonald is either.

Randy right now needs some help spotting a young up and coming gem as a manager.

[QldVilla]

Sorry BOF, but I have to disagree with this article.

Would appear my saying you can have the credit for the article has stuck Bri :-)

You might be able to forgive him two seasons ago for failing to finish in the Top4, but when you get two chances, you can't forgive him

Thanks for telling me what I can and can't do

2. He could have thrown all the resources into the League last season, but also focused on the Cups

&

3. He was unable to show faith in players that he brought to the club to rotate them through the squad, he could of played these palyers in the domestic cups comps, but he didn't.

When MON played a reserve side in the Europa league and got knocked out people went a little nuts, in addition in our cup exits to Leicester and QPR were criticised. So he was damned if he did and damned if he didn't. Furthermore I enjoyed the day at Wembley and there is no conclusive evidence that we would have finished 4th without the final that day in addition had it not been for the guy with a serious lack of bottle in the middle we'd have a trophy in the cabinet.

O'Neill is a very good Manager, but also a smart one. I for one don't believe he could take us any further

This I agree with based on the fact we don't have the money to spend to overtake city.

I will always wonder how much of this piece would exist if the score was reversed at the weekend. And how many people agreed with it then.

I always wonder IF someone had pulled a red card at Wembley how much of the vitrole aimed at Martin wouldn't exist as we'd have a trophy in the cabint. It's a mighty big word is if and if you are suggesting this is a knee jerk reaction you'd be wrong!

Richard at not stage in my remarks was I referring to yourself. I can't forgive him for failing to learn from two seasons, when in a good position, to capitilise and break into the Top 4.

You seem to forget that significant amount of players were frozen out of the first team last season, and didn't even , if rarely got chance or time in the Cup games, ie Reo Coker, Sidwell, Young, Davies, Harewood etc.

At times during last season the team played tired and cost us premiership points, further his inability to change the Home form over the past two seasons verges on being incompetent.

O'Neill has his own coaching methodology, but it is also flawed, and cost us a Champion League position. You seem to forget that one of the Big 4 cracked under the pressure last season, Arsenal nearly did the season before. In my opinion Tottenham won't cope with the extra competition this season, and Liverpool don't look any better, so we still could of pushed for the the Top 4.

[thunderholt]

Some great replies posted guys, i have been have been in the dumps the last month or so with villa , reading these comments have made me feel better in a strange kind of way & agree with a lot of the replies made

Overall Martin has been a sucess, a good manager, not a great manager. In his time as manager it's been a rollercoaster of highs & lows. He's bought some average players & they came good, bought some good players & some rubbish that he should have moved on when surplus to requirements.

Highs for me: Consistant 6th position, Carling cup final (Guttless ref!!), Carling cup Semi being 2 nil down to whipping Blackburn. Beating the Bluenoses 5-1, Beating Liverplop & Man ure on thier grounds. Qualifing for europe.

Lows: Fielding weakened sides in europe, crashing out of europe at the 1st attempt. getting hamered 7-1 by Chelski. Lackluster performances. PLayers players out of position, Lack of squad rotation towards end of season.

More highs that lows, so all in all a success but the biggest disappointment is his timing to leave it's really left us in the crapper, very corncerned we won't get a manager of his calibre when we actually need someone who is better, we may end up with someone worse.

can see us 8th - 10th this season

rebuilding starts summer 2011

[Jon]

Sorry BOF, but I have to disagree with this article.

Would appear my saying you can have the credit for the article has stuck Bri :-)

You might be able to forgive him two seasons ago for failing to finish in the Top4, but when you get two chances, you can't forgive him

Thanks for telling me what I can and can't do

2. He could have thrown all the resources into the League last season, but also focused on the Cups

&

3. He was unable to show faith in players that he brought to the club to rotate them through the squad, he could of played these palyers in the domestic cups comps, but he didn't.

When MON played a reserve side in the Europa league and got knocked out people went a little nuts, in addition in our cup exits to Leicester and QPR were criticised. So he was damned if he did and damned if he didn't. Furthermore I enjoyed the day at Wembley and there is no conclusive evidence that we would have finished 4th without the final that day in addition had it not been for the guy with a serious lack of bottle in the middle we'd have a trophy in the cabinet.

O'Neill is a very good Manager, but also a smart one. I for one don't believe he could take us any further

This I agree with based on the fact we don't have the money to spend to overtake city.

I will always wonder how much of this piece would exist if the score was reversed at the weekend. And how many people agreed with it then.

I always wonder IF someone had pulled a red card at Wembley how much of the vitrole aimed at Martin wouldn't exist as we'd have a trophy in the cabint. It's a mighty big word is if and if you are suggesting this is a knee jerk reaction you'd be wrong!

Richard at no stage in my remarks was I referring to yourself.

Indeed you weren't.

You were referring to Bri, who didn't write the article. :winkold:

[QldVilla]

Ahhh Jon, thanks for your most insightful response, but somehow I feel dumber for having to have read it.

[villacross]

Absolutely spot-on! I now regret renewing my season ticket - the dream is now dead. - Thanks Lerner. What price your 5 year plan now?

[A.J.Rimmer]

It's a long while since I posted on this site as I live abroad, though I'm currently back in the UK, so I looked in for the first time in ages.

I couldn't say what our problem is and am not clever enough to offer any realistic solutions.

However, for me there is one crucial factor: some years back I counted the different league champions between the 2 wars and in the 20 years following WW2. For both periods the were some 10 different champions plus some 10 different runners-up who never won the title. Although even a great club such as ours failed to win the title in either period, we should take pleasure in the fact that the race was so open. In short every one had a genuine chance.

By contrast the past 15 years has been a joke and the the Big 4 have pretty much become the Big 2... note our cup runs last season.

Whoever said football is broke is absolutely right, and I have pretty much lost interest in it.

[rjw63]

It's a long while since I posted on this site as I live abroad, though I'm currently back in the UK, so I looked in for the first time in ages.

We missed you Arnold!