Rough Trade - The Milner/ Ireland Deal

[TRO]

while the whole world wants to join Man city, why would Stephen Ireland want to join us.....on the surface.

deep down we are a great club....as are Everton imo

I as many others could write reams and reams and reams of lines on why money does'nt buy happiness and it seriously doesn't but on the surface it does.

because synthetic people believe that... there are managers by the bucket load have proved that theory wrong.... but its hard work and nobody likes hard work these days.

Don Revie, Harry Catterick, Howard Kendall,Bertie Mee, Ron Saunders,Brian Clough,Arsene Venger.

The Man City thing is a joke to me.... its just that they have won the lottery.... Chelsea and Man U were doing it way before them.... i say good luck to them.

that's a very good point, and i agree TRO. The point about why would Ireland want to join us is exactly right, and something I was trying to het at. villa, in my eyes is better than City, but then Im a lifelong villain. Ireland came through their youth scheme, and will no doubt have been happy until recently at city, and its the change in the way they are now set up that has made him miffed. The whole trading of people at a whim, as city are doing, based only on a money fuelled desire to be an international name is out of kilter, where's the soul in it. Where's the humanity?

That's the risk we are playing with. If a football manager identifies that the person and player is the right thing for villa, and the player thinks it's the right thing for him, then great. If a money man decides, then that's another matter, and thats my concern about the signing without a manager with a long term vision for villa being in place and making that judgement.

Once football stops being about people, and becomes about money, thats where it loses its way as an element in the social fabric, as something worth all the time and thought and effort and travel and devotion we all put into it.

I understand your stance and whole heartedly agree....but,it takes a brave man with oodles of millions involved in a football club to get all sentimental about the rights and the wrongs of appointing the managers.....when the mass media want big names.Randy is right Barton was a caretaker manager, but what he failed to say was this....Ron Saunders had a clear role, so did Barton, so did Roy McLaren....Martin O'Neill had him an his 2 muppets....nodding dogs.

I'm really not sure what is right and what is wrong....I am sure about this.O'neill was an imposter, and i wasn't going to renew while he was in charge, now i might.

[bannedfromHandV]

I agree with everything written.

Have been giving the same opinion on ireland all week and have been lambasted for it.

Extremely odd to sign a player, in an exchange or otherwise when we have no manager, my only suspicion there is that RL still trusts MoN's judgement and I guess MoN identified Ireland as a good piece of business. Randy doesn't strike me as being the type to want to try and run a football team, the club yes but not the team.

I certainly do not think you're alone in your dejection mate

[HolteExile]

Milner is a Leeds fan and played for Leeds - was offered more money to play for Newcastle - he joined Newcastle, was offered more money to join Villa - he joined Villa, was offered more money to join Man City - he joined Man City. I cannot see how he has a reputation of being loyal - he isn't. He just works hard on the pitch.

Stephen Ireland joined Man City 5 years ago worked hard and wanted to play for Man City, and probably still does, but has been pushed out by big money signings. I know the situation(s) were different, but I think he has a better track record in terms of loyalty than Milner.

In terms of who gets what, I think Milner is pretty much what Man City are missing in terms of a totally committed, hard working midfielder to keep them going during bad patches allowing the real flair players to excel. For Villa we get an actual attacking midfielder who can break down stubborn defences, assuming we play a five man midfield for protection.

Overall I think the loyal label applied to Milner is fatuous and could more accurately be applied to Ireland, however Milner is in form now and I can only hope that Ireland will be up for it and really show the form he is capable of.

Spot on Dom.

In the wider context, I see no problem with this deal being finalised by by people outside of the playing/coaching set-up. MON leaving when he did pretty much ensured we had little choice in the matter.

The alternative was to keep an unhappy player in Milner and -despite a good performance v West Ham- it's unlikely that a disatified player can give you the required level of performance over an extended period.

It's a clean break, as it were.

The new manager inherits a very good player in Ireland and quite a few others, plus the cash we received was probably closer to Jimmy's true valuation anyway.

I'm not too preturbed that he showed enough nous to make life difficult for Garry Cook at the end either. He was just getting what was his. If he delivers anything approaching the consistency Richard Dunne managed after a similar scenario; and if we can give him that security and sense of permanence that no player at Citeh can possibly enjoy we could reap the benefits for many years to come.

[scottyav]

Not one post saying financial gain, why keep milner till next season when we'll be lucky to get 10 mill end of for him and still not be in champions league or get 18 or 20 mill PLUS ireland now who could be worth 12 or 14 next season and still be 5th 6th or 7th still, cracking deal there will be other players to buy or sell its the way it is these days unless we get 150 million to buy every world class player out there. Shame to see him go but he will be replaced in the future don't worry.

[TRO]

In reply to the massive long quote, no I don't know why mon left. I have a pretty good idea of some of the reasons I have a good idea of some of the things going on, but no I don't know why he left. Like James Milner, he'll keep his pronouncements to himself,too, I'd reckon.

facts are not for this site opinions are more interesting.....you are well versed , spill the beans.

no one will kill you for being wrong.

[Reality]

Milner is a Leeds fan and played for Leeds - was offered more money to play for Newcastle - he joined Newcastle, was offered more money to join Villa - he joined Villa, was offered more money to join Man City - he joined Man City. I cannot see how he has a reputation of being loyal - he isn't. He just works hard on the pitch.

Stephen Ireland joined Man City 5 years ago worked hard and wanted to play for Man City, and probably still does, but has been pushed out by big money signings. I know the situation(s) were different, but I think he has a better track record in terms of loyalty than Milner.

In terms of who gets what, I think Milner is pretty much what Man City are missing in terms of a totally committed, hard working midfielder to keep them going during bad patches allowing the real flair players to excel. For Villa we get an actual attacking midfielder who can break down stubborn defences, assuming we play a five man midfield for protection.

Overall I think the loyal label applied to Milner is fatuous and could more accurately be applied to Ireland, however Milner is in form now and I can only hope that Ireland will be up for it and really show the form he is capable of.

Nobody will deny that. What people are annoyed about / pissed off in the greater context of things is when he went to the media in November, and said "I love it here. I love playing here. I'm finally settled at a club I want to stay with. I never had that before." Low and behold he was off a matter of months later.

[briny_ear]

Excellent piece, Blandy.

I am currently whistling very hard and telling myself that we will survive the loss of Milner, everything will be OK with the Ireland deal, and that all will be well with Villa.

But it is hard to shake off a nagging feeling that things are happening that don't quite add up - like the Ireland swap going ahead despite the fact that we don't have a manager, the fact that the "wages to revenue" issue seems to have disappeared off the map, and general uncertainty about what our objectives actually are for the rest of the transfer window.

I guess there is nothing to do but keep whistling hard.

[Cracker1234]

But it is hard to shake off a nagging feeling that things are happening that don't quite add up - like the Ireland swap going ahead despite the fact that we don't have a manager, the fact that the "wages to revenue" issue seems to have disappeared off the map, and general uncertainty about what our objectives actually are for the rest of the transfer window.

I guess there is nothing to do but keep whistling hard.

The wages to revenue issue hasn't disappeared, Milner left and HAD to be replaced....I think we've got a good replacement.

We need to get rid of some of the players who are never going to make it in this club that will free up them wages.

As for them bringing in Ireland with no manager in place, Villa paid 12 million for Milner? We're going to recieve 16.5 million from what I've read and Ireland....That is a fantastic deal that can't be turned down and it was accepted by the manager what was in place at the time, so if it was good enough for "our best manager in years" it should still stand.

Citeh are off their rockers for even letting that deal go ahead, look at what Real Madrid paid yesterday for 2 class players.

We got a fab deal for 1 player that is motivated by owners waving shiny shiny infront of his face.

"motivated might not be the correct word in that sentance, but I'm on my first cuppa and can't think straight, I'll change it when I think of a more fitting word"

.

[bannedfromHandV]

^^

Ozil only had a year left on his contract, that's roughly the amount we could have expected to receive for Milner next summer had he stayed on for a year......puts things in perspective a bit I think.

[dundeevilla]

I share your concerns about this deal Blandy.

It's left me with a bad taste in my mouth. We've lost our best player, got a player who really doesn't want to be at Villa, which won't help the wage bill (which we've all been told must be slashed), and the board are hiring players when we don't have a manager.

It is entirely possible that the next manager will not rate SI at all. It doesn't quite make sense.

[Richard]

I think I've not explained my point very well. There's no difference between one season ticket holder and the next. Gav asked me would I rather....., and my answer was meant to say that what I think (as a Holte End season ticket holding fan) was no more or less relevant to doing a deal than the view of any other fan. In fact, it is the manager and only the manager who should decide who he wants, but we don't have one, we've got a caretaker, so WHO decided and why.

Cracking point, I made a similar one yesterday and was told I had no credibility, go figure

[Cracker1234]

It is entirely possible that the next manager will not rate SI at all. It doesn't quite make sense.

It's just as possible that the next manager will not rate some of players who play in the first 11 team atm and rate SI.

How long did SI have left on his contract at Citeh? 4years? 3 years?

Ozil had 1 year left and Real Madrid are paying 14 mil for him? Milner had 2 years and Citeh are paying 26mil, that's 16.5 mil cash and SI who they say is worth 10 mil.

That's not even 3 mil for each year if SI has 4 years left on his contract.

MON was fine with bringing SI to Villa before he left and he if had stayed we would have got him as part of the deal, I don't see why that should change.

Maybe the deal had gone too far once Villa accepted 16.5 mil and Ireland.

All I know is that we don't have another player like Milner in the squad so bringing in another creative player isn't a bad thing.

[briny_ear]

The wages to revenue issue hasn't disappeared, Milner left and HAD to be replaced....I think we've got a good replacement.

We need to get rid of some of the players who are never going to make it in this club that will free up them wages.

As for them bringing in Ireland with no manager in place, Villa paid 12 million for Milner? We're going to recieve 16.5 million from what I've read and Ireland....That is a fantastic deal that can't be turned down and it was accepted by the manager what was in place at the time, so if it was good enough for "our best manager in years" it should still stand.

.

I think the worry is that this is a good money deal but not necessarily a good footballing one.

Ireland has a record of difficult relationships with some managers. MON may have thought he could manage him OK; Kevin MacDonald almost certainly does. We don't know if a different manager would do so well, so while I agree it makes sense on the money side, it is a risk on the footballing side.

I'll take your word for it on the "wages to revenue" issue (I note we've just signed Ireland on a 4 year contract at a reported £65,000 a week). I wonder who will be sold? Will it be the same list as drawn up by MON, (so people like Luke Young, Curtis Davies, Steve Sidwell) on the basis that if this list was 'good enough for "our best manager in years" it should still stand'?

Or will there be a different list?

Needs to be sorted soon as we've only got 13 days to do the selling.

[Richard]

Needs to be sorted soon as we've only got 13 days to do the selling.

More importantly, n 13 days left to do ANY buying

[terrytini]

I am staggered by the amount of fans who seem okay with the fact that our owner has just bought a player.

Even more so when by his own words players coming in will be in shorter supply now, with the emphasis on 'living within our income' .

Nothing should have happeneed until we had appointed a Manager, who should then have had the say on what he wanted.

(But I am equally staggered by the number who suddenly seem to want our Reserve team Coach as Manager, the number who are thanking Milner 'for all he's done', the number who seem okay with our Boards rubbishing of MON, and the lack of protests about the subtle shift in stance away from Owner Investment)

[Doug]

Don't give a toss about James Milner, who he went to or how his career progresses from here on in. Similarly, I don't care a damn about Man City.

Win , Lose, or Draw, It's VILLA EVERMORE!

[Cracker1234]

Needs to be sorted soon as we've only got 13 days to do the selling.

More importantly, n 13 days left to do ANY buying

The only problem I see with us buying more players is, they will want to play first team football, we can't offer "good" players crazy wages to attract them to Villa, the promise of first team football is what will make them players come.

If that would be the case, who do you drop from the first 11 for the new people that you "hope" Villa sign.

We have a problem at AV now where we have some not so great players on higher wages than they would have got at other clubs and they're happy to stay at Villa on the bench or in some cases not even get in the squad.

Better players wouldn't stand for that, more so knowing there are players around the same wage bracket who don't have a chance of getting into the first 11.

[Cracker1234]

I am staggered by the amount of fans who seem okay with the fact that our owner has just bought a player.

(But I am equally staggered by the number who suddenly seem to want our Reserve team Coach as Manager, the number who are thanking Milner 'for all he's done', the number who seem okay with our Boards rubbishing of MON, and the lack of protests about the subtle shift in stance away from Owner Investment)

I don't think Randy Lerner is about a sign a player that is worth 10 million without asking questions if he will be good for the club.

Kevin has done fine with the reserve team and he knows them young players better than anyone at the club, that's the sort of players we need to move up to the first team squad and I think he would be the best person to do that, not spending 20 mil here and 20 mil there for a player with a bigger name.

We have a good squad without them younger players moving up, but atleast this way they will have a chance of doing so.

As for MON, he walked out on the club 5 days before kick off, we will maybe never know the real reason why, but just walking out of the club 5 days before kick off isn't the best thing he could have done.

Who said Lerner isn't going to invest? Maybe he didn't want to give MON anymore money to buy players like Sidwell, Heskey and all them others who aren't that great.

[villabromsgrove]

I am staggered by the amount of fans who seem okay with the fact that our owner has just bought a player.

Even more so when by his own words players coming in will be in shorter supply now, with the emphasis on 'living within our income' .

Nothing should have happeneed until we had appointed a Manager, who should then have had the say on what he wanted.

(But I am equally staggered by the number who suddenly seem to want our Reserve team Coach as Manager, the number who are thanking Milner 'for all he's done', the number who seem okay with our Boards rubbishing of MON, and the lack of protests about the subtle shift in stance away from Owner Investment)

Signing SI is the clearest indication that KM will be our new manager imo. He will probably work with a DoF, and he has almost certainly encouraged Randy to go ahead with the SI component of the Milner transfer.

As for being staggered by knowledgeable fans wanting a much better coach than Mon, a much better tactician than Mon, and a much better man manager than Mon who also happens to be our reserve team coach and manager, I suggest that you suspend judgement until you get to know the man.

Finally Randy isn't moving away from owner investment, he is obviously targeting the wasted wages. These wages will be recovered by either moving certain players on, or by several of the frozen out players actually having the opportunity to earn those wages by contributing to our future success on the pitch.

It takes all sorts of fans to support a club, and I guess you and I Terry are opposite ends of the spectrum. I respect your views and can see where your concerns are coming from, but I hope that future results will show that Randy has got things right after a concerning few months.

[granville]

I am staggered by the amount of fans who seem okay with the fact that our owner has just bought a player.

I am staggered you seem to think that is a fact. From what I can tell MON picked out Ireland in the swap, they got into the advanced stages of negotiations and then MON left. In this tricky situation Randy consulted with MacDonald and decided to go through with the deal.

Hardly Abramovichesque Schevchenko buying is it?