Better Long Term Holding Midfielder Option- Petrov or NRC?

[GarethRDR]

Saying this is fine but where are the suggestions?

Never being one to pass up the opportunity to make a list...

• -Danielle Galloppa (Parma)
  -Gökhan Inler (Udinese)
  -Alberto Zapater (Genoa)
  -Wálter Gargano (Napoli)
  -Marco Donadel (Fiorentina)
  -Antonio Nocerino (Palermo)
  -Cristian Daniel Ledesma (Lazio)
  -Nuri Sahin (Borussia Dortmund)
  -Piotr Trochowski (Hamburg)
  -Sejad Salihovic (1899 Hoffenheim)
  -Zdravko Kuzmanovic (VfB Stuttgart)
  -Zvjezdan Misimovic (VfL Wolfsburg)
  -Simon Rolfes (Bayer Leverkusen)
  -Marco Reus (Borussia Mönchengladbach)

Some of those would cost a bit of money, some would be a bargain, some would be a risk but I believe all of those could do a job and are within our reach. Piece o' piss, this manager lark.

[gabbygabbygabbygabbygabby]

I think what TRO is saying is that you need balance in a team and our team, particularly in a 4-4-2, lacks someone with a bit of aggression and forward drive in the centre of the park. Invariably, the player that does this in a 4-4-2 will not be a "footballer". If you look at NRCs performances last year we looked a much stronger outfit IMO on the limited occasions that he was allowed to play than when he didn't. He was the MOTM in the two Plop games I think, participated in home win against Fulham and away win against Blues, played in the home game against Spurs and the thrashing of Bolton. I thought he played an important part in every one of the games he played??

I like NRC and I would like him to stay with us but I do not buy into him being this incredible 'destroyer'. For 1 I think that speciality position is overhyped and not good for a team like ours who cannot just rely on our attacking players to score goals, we need all 11 players contributing in all areas, obviously some more than others but NRC contribution for us ranges from little to negative and this is counter productive to our side.

So if the first name is a designated 'destroyer' I will always disagree. We need a midfield that can play, perhaps he could work in a 5 man midfield but in a 442 we cannot afford 1 less player when we are in possession.

Just to reiterate he is a good player who can do a job for us but promoting him to a guaranteed starter would be a huge mistake. All imo of course.

[barry'sboots]

Saying this is fine but where are the suggestions?

Never being one to pass up the opportunity to make a list...

• -Danielle Galloppa (Parma)
  -Gökhan Inler (Udinese)
  -Alberto Zapater (Genoa)
  -Wálter Gargano (Napoli)
  -Marco Donadel (Fiorentina)
  -Antonio Nocerino (Palermo)
  -Cristian Daniel Ledesma (Lazio)
  -Nuri Sahin (Borussia Dortmund)
  -Piotr Trochowski (Hamburg)
  -Sejad Salihovic (1899 Hoffenheim)
  -Zdravko Kuzmanovic (VfB Stuttgart)
  -Zvjezdan Misimovic (VfL Wolfsburg)
  -Simon Rolfes (Bayer Leverkusen)
  -Marco Reus (Borussia Mönchengladbach)

Some of those would cost a bit of money, some would be a bargain, some would be a risk but I believe all of those could do a job and are within our reach. Piece o' piss, this manager lark.

Don't know a great deal about most of these as I don't watch much foreign footie but the ones that I recognise - Trochowski and Reus and - are not, if I am correct, holding midfielders?? I suspect MON knows even less than I do though.

[GarethRDR]

Mixture of holding, central and attacking midfielders (both Trochowski and Reus are attacking midfielders who can also play on the wing). I waste far too much of my life watching Bundesliga and Serie A games online.

[TRO]

NRC, very underrated.

its the biggest joke at Villa park, that NRC don't play

Ron Saunders would have him as the first name on the team sheet, just like he did with Des Bremner.

its people who can't read a game who have him as dogshit.... cause basically they don't know what is going on out there.

To say he can't do this and can't do that is a complete farce.

the same folk need to look at the things there so called stars are doing..... cause they simply ain't... its a myth.

listening to some of the complete jokers, if you beleived what they say , we would have won the league.

Did you just compare NRC to Bremner and then attack other people for having inflated views on some of our players?? Wow!

of course its about opinions and that has to be accepted.

But Des wasn't blessed with passing ability like Nigel isn't too ( theres a shock for a defensive midfielder) but the discerning Villa Fans of that era never expected him to....They valued him for what he did best and appreciated the value to the team effort.

Cowans & Mortimer did the passing bit.... Des Just did his destroying job and short passed to them to do the creative bit.when he gets a chance that what NRC does.

we kinda understood that in them days.

some are now looking for a team full of wingers or pretty players.

I say get on with it.

I never got to see him play. But I've seen clips and I know how highly he is regarded by Villa fans. This is a player that won the league and EC. Saying NRC should be the first name on the teamsheet like Bremner was is nonsense. NRC is a good midtable player, absolutely nothing more!

No, it is anything but nonsense.

where the nonsense comes in is this....

Des bremner was surrounded by better players than we have now.....if you didn't have the privilege of seeing them thats not helpful for this debate... however let me give you my spin on things.

Des bremner was not if any better than Nigel Reo Coker, but what he did do is play in a better team.

Tony Morley,Gary Shaw and Gordon Cowans were better than Ashley Young,James Milner & Gabby Agbonlahor.

Thats where the difference is in my opinion.

Ok I think Mortimer was better than Petrov too.

Ps Before you back to all our yesterdays.....Football has changed and there are so many things that have.....but spookily they said that 100 years ago and so many things are still the same.

[Chindie]

Reductio ad Saundersum.

[TRO]

I think what TRO is saying is that you need balance in a team and our team, particularly in a 4-4-2, lacks someone with a bit of aggression and forward drive in the centre of the park. Invariably, the player that does this in a 4-4-2 will not be a "footballer". If you look at NRCs performances last year we looked a much stronger outfit IMO on the limited occasions that he was allowed to play than when he didn't. He was the MOTM in the two Plop games I think, participated in home win against Fulham and away win against Blues, played in the home game against Spurs and the thrashing of Bolton. I thought he played an important part in every one of the games he played??

I like NRC and I would like him to stay with us but I do not buy into him being this incredible 'destroyer'. For 1 I think that speciality position is overhyped and not good for a team like ours who cannot just rely on our attacking players to score goals, we need all 11 players contributing in all areas, obviously some more than others but NRC contribution for us ranges from little to negative and this is counter productive to our side.

So if the first name is a designated 'destroyer' I will always disagree. We need a midfield that can play, perhaps he could work in a 5 man midfield but in a 442 we cannot afford 1 less player when we are in possession.

Just to reiterate he is a good player who can do a job for us but promoting him to a guaranteed starter would be a huge mistake. All imo of course.

well bearing in mind its all opinions and that is the fascination.

but let me remind you " Incredible" was your word and your interpretation.

We all have our opinions on what line ups should be....and in over 70 years we have won the league title once ( not checked the dates so don't be pedantic)...when we did we played with an out and out Ball Winner, who wasn't blessed with the silky skills, so many crave on here.

I'd risk giving that a try again.... even if it was simply to give it a try.

If we can go 15 games winning 2 with a player that was saying he wants out..... surely we can give that a try with a player that wants to stay and fight for his place.

what messages are we sending out?

[TRO]

Reductio ad Saundersum.

Hi Chindie

yes mate.... because it was somebody I rated very highly and rather than speculation which some on here wallow in....its fact.

I would value Ron Saunders opinion on football over O'Neill any day.

not saying O'Neill has done a bad job, but neither did Gregory or Little and thats the company I would just about put him in..... no disrespect to them of course.

Thought you may have come back with a tangible response rather than a personal sleight.

.....sorry for benchmarking a great Manager.

Ps Oh and bye the way I had the opportunity and good fortune to meet Tony Barton on one occasion .....his thoughts and opinions on football , just blew me away. Highly intelligent man in terms of Football and great talent spotter.

[gabbygabbygabbygabbygabby]

I think what TRO is saying is that you need balance in a team and our team, particularly in a 4-4-2, lacks someone with a bit of aggression and forward drive in the centre of the park. Invariably, the player that does this in a 4-4-2 will not be a "footballer". If you look at NRCs performances last year we looked a much stronger outfit IMO on the limited occasions that he was allowed to play than when he didn't. He was the MOTM in the two Plop games I think, participated in home win against Fulham and away win against Blues, played in the home game against Spurs and the thrashing of Bolton. I thought he played an important part in every one of the games he played??

I like NRC and I would like him to stay with us but I do not buy into him being this incredible 'destroyer'. For 1 I think that speciality position is overhyped and not good for a team like ours who cannot just rely on our attacking players to score goals, we need all 11 players contributing in all areas, obviously some more than others but NRC contribution for us ranges from little to negative and this is counter productive to our side.

So if the first name is a designated 'destroyer' I will always disagree. We need a midfield that can play, perhaps he could work in a 5 man midfield but in a 442 we cannot afford 1 less player when we are in possession.

Just to reiterate he is a good player who can do a job for us but promoting him to a guaranteed starter would be a huge mistake. All imo of course.

well bearing in mind its all opinions and that is the fascination.

but let me remind you " Incredible" was your word and your interpretation.

We all have our opinions on what line ups should be....and in over 70 years we have won the league title once ( not checked the dates so don't be pedantic)...when we did we played with an out and out Ball Winner, who wasn't blessed with the silky skills, so many crave on here.

I'd risk giving that a try again.... even if it was simply to give it a try.

If we can go 15 games winning 2 with a player that was saying he wants out..... surely we can give that a try with a player that wants to stay and fight for his place.

what messages are we sending out?

I am under the impression that you think Bremner was a great player so that is where I got the word incredible from.

Football has changed a lot and I think if you are going to play with 2 in midfield then they have to do more than just tackle. As I said maybe in a central 3 but he leaves too big gaps for my liking in a 2.

I'm all for giving things a go, I think it is in our best interests to be able to use a few different formations and personnel. This is why I would like NRC to stay.

[Chindie]

Reductio ad Saundersum.

Hi Chindie

yes mate.... because it was somebody I rated very highly and rather than speculation which some on here wallow in....its fact.

I would value Ron Saunders opinion on football over O'Neill any day.

not saying O'Neill has done a bad job, but neither did Gregory or Little and thats the company I would just about put him in..... no disrespect to them of course.

Thought you may have come back with a tangible response rather than a personal sleight.

.....sorry for benchmarking a great Manager.

Ps Oh and bye the way I had the opportunity and good fortune to meet Tony Barton on one occasion .....his thoughts and opinions on football , just blew me away. Highly intelligent man in terms of Football and great talent spotter.

It wasn't a personal slight, it's a criticism of your argument that amounts to something similar to the Hitler fallacy, which dictates because Hitler did it, it's bad. For you, because Saunders would do it (...30 years ago...) it's right.

Logical fallacy.

[TRO]

Reductio ad Saundersum.

Hi Chindie

yes mate.... because it was somebody I rated very highly and rather than speculation which some on here wallow in....its fact.

I would value Ron Saunders opinion on football over O'Neill any day.

not saying O'Neill has done a bad job, but neither did Gregory or Little and thats the company I would just about put him in..... no disrespect to them of course.

Thought you may have come back with a tangible response rather than a personal sleight.

.....sorry for benchmarking a great Manager.

Ps Oh and bye the way I had the opportunity and good fortune to meet Tony Barton on one occasion .....his thoughts and opinions on football , just blew me away. Highly intelligent man in terms of Football and great talent spotter.

It wasn't a personal slight, it's a criticism of your argument that amounts to something similar to the Hitler fallacy, which dictates because Hitler did it, it's bad. For you, because Saunders would do it (...30 years ago...) it's right.

Logical fallacy.

I'm not sure i get what your alluding too....yes you can't take everything that happened years ago as gospel and line by line, but if we didn't learn from history what is the point of anything.....I guess experience itself is what we are talking about.

doesn't Martin himself talk about Brian Clough and what he did morning, noon & night....wish he copied him.

but hey....its good to talk.

[avfc89]

Chindie - And your logic of NRC being "shit" is built around what?... Statistics? I find it very rich that you can demolish and degrade TRO's opinion because he uses factual, successful examples to support his argument.

You write some great and informative posts on this forum, I enjoy reading your posts, but on this NRC issue you're completely and utterly wrong about it all.

[AVFC-Prideofbrum]

Both have their attributes. Both are good in different situations. For example, I think NRC should be used more in home games when you need to set a nice high tempo to the game and look to win the ball regularly and keep pressure on the opposition. Whereas away from home, I like Petrov's calmness as he breaks play up with his brain rather than physicality and when you allow your opponents to have the ball like you do away from home, you need players like that.

I'd also like to see them both together at times with a 3 man midfield.

I don't believe either are good enough to command a first team spot every single week but Petrov should be used less and NRC more, I think they are pretty equal players.

[Chindie]

I'm not sure i get what your alluding too....yes you can't take everything that happened years ago as gospel and line by line, but if we didn't learn from history what is the point of anything.....I guess experience itself is what we are talking about.

doesn't Martin himself talk about Brian Clough and what he did morning, noon & night....wish he copied him.

but hey....its good to talk.

I'm alluding to your argument being absolutely without point when referring to 'He'd be the first name on the teamsheet with Ron Saunders'.

It means nothing. You use it to justify your position on NRC's use to the side, but it does nothing of the sort. Just because he'd be the first name on the sheet for Saunders doesn't mean a thing to todays MON, 2010 side. It's utterly irrelevant.

It's no different to the Hitler fallacy, as I alluded to.

[TRO]

I think what TRO is saying is that you need balance in a team and our team, particularly in a 4-4-2, lacks someone with a bit of aggression and forward drive in the centre of the park. Invariably, the player that does this in a 4-4-2 will not be a "footballer". If you look at NRCs performances last year we looked a much stronger outfit IMO on the limited occasions that he was allowed to play than when he didn't. He was the MOTM in the two Plop games I think, participated in home win against Fulham and away win against Blues, played in the home game against Spurs and the thrashing of Bolton. I thought he played an important part in every one of the games he played??

I like NRC and I would like him to stay with us but I do not buy into him being this incredible 'destroyer'. For 1 I think that speciality position is overhyped and not good for a team like ours who cannot just rely on our attacking players to score goals, we need all 11 players contributing in all areas, obviously some more than others but NRC contribution for us ranges from little to negative and this is counter productive to our side.

So if the first name is a designated 'destroyer' I will always disagree. We need a midfield that can play, perhaps he could work in a 5 man midfield but in a 442 we cannot afford 1 less player when we are in possession.

Just to reiterate he is a good player who can do a job for us but promoting him to a guaranteed starter would be a huge mistake. All imo of course.

well bearing in mind its all opinions and that is the fascination.

but let me remind you " Incredible" was your word and your interpretation.

We all have our opinions on what line ups should be....and in over 70 years we have won the league title once ( not checked the dates so don't be pedantic)...when we did we played with an out and out Ball Winner, who wasn't blessed with the silky skills, so many crave on here.

I'd risk giving that a try again.... even if it was simply to give it a try.

If we can go 15 games winning 2 with a player that was saying he wants out..... surely we can give that a try with a player that wants to stay and fight for his place.

what messages are we sending out?

I am under the impression that you think Bremner was a great player so that is where I got the word incredible from.

Football has changed a lot and I think if you are going to play with 2 in midfield then they have to do more than just tackle. As I said maybe in a central 3 but he leaves too big gaps for my liking in a 2.

I'm all for giving things a go, I think it is in our best interests to be able to use a few different formations and personnel. This is why I would like NRC to stay.

Gabby, honestly i appreciate your comments.

One of the reasons I feel passionately about NRC's game is this and beleive me I do understand about folk's opinions of his shortfall in passing ability ..except a) I think it is overplayed and exagerrated & for the value that the player brings it can be negated.

back to the issue

I used to go in to the Aston Social all them years ago. with a dour view on Des Bremner.... waxing Lyrical about Morley,Shaw Cowans and Bremner....talking in to night about Peter withes goals....Jimmy Rimmer was the best i ever seen and so on.

It took me years, sorry to admit this....to realise the value of Des Bremner, I feel humbled at the fact whan i was in my thirties I thought I knew what I was watching....Des Bremner created the platform for the other to play in.

I don't want to go overboard on NRC'S value, because I simply know it is unlikely it will be recognised.

all I'm saying is that Nigel's value to the team far outweighs his personal skill factor.....Like Des he is far more valuable than his individual performances suggest.

ps ...selling him will be a big mistake.

[Chindie]

Chindie - And your logic of NRC being "shit" is built around what?... Statistics? I find it very rich that you can demolish and degrade TRO's opinion because he uses factual, successful examples to support his argument.

You write some great and informative posts on this forum, I enjoy reading your posts, but on this NRC issue you're completely and utterly wrong about it all.

It's based on stats in part, and watching him in part, and his own beliefs of himself somewhat.

I really cannot be arsed to go over it (again) in any detail, but his passing is pretty naff, his touch awful, can't run on the ball despite regularly trying, his tackling is good but it's no good only having that to your bow, and for all his effort and 'trying hard' he actually does **** all. And this from a bloke who thinks he's a box to box mid.

For all the criticism Petrov's ever got, he does everything NRC does, and can actually play football too.

NRC has served his purpose, I thank him for that, move him on to the likes of Stoke or whoever will buy him.

I'm also frankly fed up that such a mediocre player has such a wealth of time spent mithering over him. Rather like the talk of Gareth Barry once he'd left, I'm hoping we can consign wasting the effort over him to the past, sharpish.

Now lets never speak of him again.

[TRO]

I'm not sure i get what your alluding too....yes you can't take everything that happened years ago as gospel and line by line, but if we didn't learn from history what is the point of anything.....I guess experience itself is what we are talking about.

doesn't Martin himself talk about Brian Clough and what he did morning, noon & night....wish he copied him.

but hey....its good to talk.

I'm alluding to your argument being absolutely without point when referring to 'He'd be the first name on the teamsheet with Ron Saunders'.

It means nothing. You use it to justify your position on NRC's use to the side, but it does nothing of the sort. Just because he'd be the first name on the sheet for Saunders doesn't mean a thing to todays MON, 2010 side. It's utterly irrelevant.

It's no different to the Hitler fallacy, as I alluded to.

Chindie

lighten up, of couse it means something.....This site is all about opinions and some we agree with and some we don't.

it is well documented you don't agree with mine and i don't agree with some of yours/some i do.

Looking at High energy players like Bremner and Carradus who Ron drooled on with his famous 110% effort....Nigel is from a similar stable.

even if I am the only one that believes it it means something to me.

so at least there is one poster on here that it does mean some thing to.

[Chindie]

If saying 'Ron Saunders would have him as the first name on the sheet' is a worthwhile argument to anyone for his use, in 2010, to this side...

...well, I'll be lost for words at the illogical nature of it. It's a complete fallacy. All it means is Saunders would have liked him. So what? Saunders isn't the manager anymore, Saunders isn't in the management lark anymore, he was 30 years ago.

It means nothing at all, it's completely irrelevant.

Right, I'm making a promise to myself, I'm becoming blind to the word NRC, I'm fed up of even having to waste the energy on him debating opinions of him.

[TRO]

Chindie - And your logic of NRC being "shit" is built around what?... Statistics? I find it very rich that you can demolish and degrade TRO's opinion because he uses factual, successful examples to support his argument.

You write some great and informative posts on this forum, I enjoy reading your posts, but on this NRC issue you're completely and utterly wrong about it all.

It's based on stats in part, and watching him in part, and his own beliefs of himself somewhat.

I really cannot be arsed to go over it (again) in any detail, but his passing is pretty naff, his touch awful, can't run on the ball despite regularly trying, his tackling is good but it's no good only having that to your bow, and for all his effort and 'trying hard' he actually does **** all. And this from a bloke who thinks he's a box to box mid.

For all the criticism Petrov's ever got, he does everything NRC does, and can actually play football too.

NRC has served his purpose, I thank him for that, move him on to the likes of Stoke or whoever will buy him.

I'm also frankly fed up that such a mediocre player has such a wealth of time spent mithering over him. Rather like the talk of Gareth Barry once he'd left, I'm hoping we can consign wasting the effort over him to the past, sharpish.

Now lets never speak of him again.

you really do have thing about NRC to the point that i think your appraisal is funadamentally flawed. i could disagree with the degree of your criticism on every score......its downright personal in my view.

that post is sad and your last line supports it.

ps ... but you are funny.

[TRO]

If saying 'Ron Saunders would have him as the first name on the sheet' is a worthwhile argument to anyone for his use, in 2010, to this side...

...well, I'll be lost for words at the illogical nature of it. It's a complete fallacy. All it means is Saunders would have liked him. So what? Saunders isn't the manager anymore, Saunders isn't in the management lark anymore, he was 30 years ago.

It means nothing at all, it's completely irrelevant.

Right, I'm making a promise to myself, I'm becoming blind to the word NRC, I'm fed up of even having to waste the energy on him debating opinions of him.

so don't respond, no one is standing over you forcing you to type.

i think he's a valuable member of our squad.