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Jack Grealish


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On 13/06/2021 at 19:47, Davkaus said:

Yes. Jack does lots that sterling doesn't, but he'd kill to have Sterling's goalscoring and assist stats even from last season.

We aren't talking about stats we're talking about finishing. They are not the same thing. 

Total number of goals scored means little if it takes Sterling 20 shots to get the ball in the net once vs someone who only needs four or five shots. Man City create much more than us which is obviously going to help Sterling get his total goal numbers up. 

Sterling is actually a bad finisher and one of the worst in the PL when it comes to one on ones or hitting it first time. 

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2 minutes ago, KentVillan said:

Why a grudge?

Why not just the more obvious fact: Southgate is a very cautious manager, who doesn't like to play more than one creative player.

As I said, because we believe that Jack is England's most effective creative player as evidenced by 4 MOTMs in his 6/7 performances and cannot understand why he doesn't get into the team.  You've compared him with Foden but he could equally play at 10, instead of Mount, and would bring a lot more control/attacking threat to the game.  You might argue that Mount does more defensively but I would say that Jack has been pretty strong defensively when asked to play at 8 or 10 by us and also that,with two 6's behind him, that is less relevant. 

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2 minutes ago, Frank Raphael said:

We aren't talking about stats we're talking about finishing. They are not the same thing. 

Total number of goals scored means little if it takes Sterling 20 shots to get the ball in the net once vs someone who only needs four or five shots. Man City create much more than us which is obviously going to help Sterling get his total goal numbers up. 

Sterling is actually a bad finisher and one of the worst in the PL when it comes to one on ones or hitting it first time. 

Sterling has terrible shooting technique. And his passing technique isn't much better either.

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2 minutes ago, barry'sboots said:

As I said, because we believe that Jack is England's most effective creative player as evidenced by 4 MOTMs in his 6/7 performances and cannot understand why he doesn't get into the team.  You've compared him with Foden but he could equally play at 10, instead of Mount, and would bring a lot more control/attacking threat to the game.  You might argue that Mount does more defensively but I would say that Jack has been pretty strong defensively when asked to play at 8 or 10 by us and also that,with two 6's behind him, that is less relevant. 

You're missing the point. I agree with you on how good Grealish would be in this team, and think he should be starting. But Southgate has a particular way he wants to play, and there isn't a lot of room for more than one creative player in that.

Mount isn't playing as a 10. He's a pressing CAM who keeps the ball ticking over and tries to make runs into the box. That's completely different from what Jack would do at 10, where he'd be looking to hold on to the ball and create things.

Jack is just a victim of Southgate's system more than anything. His best chance of getting into the side is a Foden injury. I have a horrible feeling that a Sterling injury would lead to Rashford starting.

Anyway, let's not be weirdo conspiracy theorists about England. Ultimately, it's kind of good for us that Jack doesn't run himself into the ground over the summer. If he has a few good cameo performances that help England progress, then great.

Southgate is just a very mediocre manager who struggles to integrate creative players and big personalities. We've known that for years. I don't know why people need to spin it into a gossip magazine exclusive.

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7 hours ago, Davkaus said:

It's very simple, you can't prove that Southgate *doesn't* have a grudge against Jack, so why not simply rely on gut instinct and paranoia? 

So many double negatives, I'm not sure which side of the argument you are on??🤔😕

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2 hours ago, Thug said:

No, but the statisticians do...

And pay particular attention to the number of tackles and pressures in the defensive 3rd.

And if you didn't see Southgate's post match interviews when he was ignoring questions about Grealish, and double standards regarding never having played in the premier league (even though he HAD and Phillips HADN'T), then you better go watch them.

Lucky for me, you didn't add Foden to that little list of yours, I hadn't realised how much work off the ball he does.  He's quite the player.

JackG.PNG

I don't think you can reduce effort to just tackles and pressures in the defensive 3rd.

Firstly, I would just look at tackles and pressures(per 90) in general and difference doesn't seem to be that big for the latter case.

Secondly, even then I feel like there's more to effort than just these 2 stats and I wouldn't be confident in calling a player to be more "hard-working" than any other just based on these 2 stats. Not like the gulf is very clear which it isn't in this case.

Thirdly, these stats are very much influenced by how a team plays and I feel like Villa probably a lot less posession than United, City, Dortmund and Tottenham. I mean, you're naturally going to tackle and pressure more if your team has less of the ball.

Fourthly, when I read your original comment it seemed like you were talking about effort in training not effort in pressures and tackling.

Edited by Laughable Chimp
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4 hours ago, Thug said:

Maybe he had him on the bench ready to come on should we be needing a goal, and get him fitter for the more important games.  - but then why play him for 90 minutes against Romania?

Maybe he was fit then, but then had a flare up, so they decided not to risk him.

Maybe Southgate doesn’t want to play him, but knows if he doesn’t win he’s going to get some hard questions about why he didn’t play - so will only play him if he *has* to, so he can say that he did play him, but didn’t make any difference?

Despite what some on here are alluding to, Southgate had a grudge with Jack - this is FACT.  The reason, and legitimacy of this grudge may be up for debate, but the grudge itself is not.  
However, although I do think he’s gotten over the grudge, I still think that he doesn’t rate him as much as the rest of the country does.  His hand has been somewhat forced, but he’s definitely come around to the idea of Jack being part of the setup.

As for the Jack saying that there’s definitely things that he’s learning and still needing to  improve his game is PR talk.  Only a proper clearing in the woods would say ‘I’m amazing and there’s nothing to improve’.  Jacks a very humble guy in every interview I’ve ever seen, and him saying that he’s learning stuff from Southgate is just normal stuff to say.  There’s nothing to learn from that fool other than how to be a good PR man.

Jack works INCREDIBLY hard.  More so that any of the other forwards in that England squad, so I can’t agree with that being a reason for leaving him out.  Southgate may well believe this, but we know about his skewed beliefs.

At the end of the day, I don’t want him injured, so I’m happy if he doesn’t play.  But I want him to be happy, so I want him to play.
 

But my biggest concern is that he will think that no matter what he does, until he’s wearing a big 6 shirt that he won’t get the recognition he deserves.  That’s my biggest gripe about this all 

There are many theories to be had...but second guessing can drive you mad.

in answer to your "why did he play him against Romania".......after 10 games out he had to have some game time to address his match fitness, and to appraise his physical fitness....He didn't play enough with us, is my suspicion.

Edited by TRO
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7 hours ago, blandy said:

It's on topic :) and relevant to the wider point, no?

Safegate can clearly see the backlash to his interviews - where he has avoided answering direct questions re Jack - and I don't think he is stupid enough to not see that Jack has been the pest player on the pitch when given the chance.  He knows that Jack is becoming a firm England (and not just Villa) fan's favourite.

Are you really expecting him to stand at the side of the pitch and pull the V's at Jack as he comes off the pitch to demonstrate his dislike???🤔😉

I might not like Safegate and I might think he has an axe to grind with Jack but I don't think he is an idiot!

Shaking Jack'shand when he leaves the pitch is certainly not conclusive evidence that the grudge has now gone??

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4 minutes ago, Laughable Chimp said:

I don't think you can reduce effort to just tackles and pressures in the defensive 3rd.

Firstly, I would just look at tackles and pressures(per 90) in general and difference doesn't seem to be that big for the latter case.

Secondly, even then I feel like there's more to effort than just these 2 stats and I wouldn't be confident in calling a player to be more "hard-working" than any other just based on these 2 stats. Not like the gulf is very clear which it isn't in this case.

Thirdly, these stats are very much influenced by how a team plays and I feel like Villa probably a lot less posession than United, City, Dortmund and Tottenham. I mean, you're naturally going to tackle and pressure more if your team has less of the ball.

Fourthly, when I read your original comment it seemed like you were talking about effort in training not effort in pressures and tackling.

Firstly I posted those stats in response to someone suggesting that he might have been left out because he wasn't hard working enough.

Secondly his tackles and interceptions are 100% more than Rashford,  and 25% more than the next closest which is Sancho.  This is a HUGE difference

Thirdly these stats are influenced hugely by how a team plays.  Like City etc?  Then how come Fodens stats are even more impressive than Grealish? The team that has the most possession of all of them? There goes your theory.  You GET possession by winning the ball back, and that starts from the front.

Fourthly; no one gives a shit about effort in training.  That was what the other fella was talking about asking me if I worked at St Georges.  It's about how much effort you put in a competitive game.

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5 minutes ago, TRO said:

There are many theories to be had...but second guessing can drive you mad.

in answer to your "why did he play him against Romania".......after 10 games out he had to have some game time to address his match fitness, and to appraise his physical fitness....He didn't play enough with us, is my suspicion.

That's what I was saying.  Maybe that's why he played him for 90 minutes.

Maybe he got his shin problem AFTER that game, and that's why he didn't start.

Maybe he's keeping him fresh for when he really needs him.

We don't know.

 

 

 

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22 minutes ago, barry'sboots said:

Well that definitely puts it beyond all doubt that he now loves the Villa!! 

You should probably read back through the last few pages of the thread, and put things into context before selectively lifting content for jibes?

" That he now loves Villa ", the extreme in sarcasm doesn't divert from the middle ground, you know, where normalcy and logic usually lays.

Anyway... this is a pointless exercise.

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5 hours ago, PieFacE said:

I kinda think people are overthinking the whole Southgate / Grealish thing. Jack will get his chance and is clearly not as fit as others right now. It's not a total shock to me that he didn't start the first game. 

I don't think its a shock to many of us, but a number of us think it was the wrong decision and are trying to understand why he made it.  There seems to be four viable streams of thought:

  1. That it's due to a grudge and I certainly think that there is historic evidence to support the existence of a grudge in the past, including the video montages in this thread.  I was told that Jack was late for training a couple of times for the U-21s and Safegate didn't like this??  Clearly there is no definitive evidence of this unless Jamaica Villan can produce that video of Safegate going into Jack's bedroom with the pins!
  2. That it is just that Safegate prefers to play in a certain way i.e. with pace up top and a pressing 10 and two 6's.  This may be the simple truth BUT doesn't stop a number on here from, I think, legitimately questioning this approach and Safegate's tactics. 
  3. That Safegate is just protecting Jack's injury but that would seem inconsistent with playing him for most of the two friendlies.
  4. Some seem to think - and I think this is a minority - that Safegate was vindicated in his selection by the result.  Personally, I can't see this - we beat a poor and ageing Croatia by 1 goal in a stodgy performance with players playing out of position etc. which is not how the better teams with a chance of winning the tournament would ideally like to start the journey imho.
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34 minutes ago, KentVillan said:

You're missing the point. I agree with you on how good Grealish would be in this team, and think he should be starting. But Southgate has a particular way he wants to play, and there isn't a lot of room for more than one creative player in that.

Mount isn't playing as a 10. He's a pressing CAM who keeps the ball ticking over and tries to make runs into the box. That's completely different from what Jack would do at 10, where he'd be looking to hold on to the ball and create things.

Jack is just a victim of Southgate's system more than anything. His best chance of getting into the side is a Foden injury. I have a horrible feeling that a Sterling injury would lead to Rashford starting.

Anyway, let's not be weirdo conspiracy theorists about England. Ultimately, it's kind of good for us that Jack doesn't run himself into the ground over the summer. If he has a few good cameo performances that help England progress, then great.

Southgate is just a very mediocre manager who struggles to integrate creative players and big personalities. We've known that for years. I don't know why people need to spin it into a gossip magazine exclusive.

No. I do get your point and I think we are largely in agreement.

You may well be right - it could just simply be that's how Safegate wants to set up (which, btw, doesn't stop people questioning this) - but, equally, it could be that he still harbours the grudge against Jack that I think most people would concede he has evidenced historically.  It is impossible for anyone other than Safegate to conclude definitively on why Jack didn't feature on Sunday.

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4 hours ago, rubberman said:

Ah - you said FACT in capitals so that's that.

By the way, how do you know Jack works harder than any of the other forwards in the squad? Maybe he does, maybe sancho or rashford or kane does... You (and I) have no idea - (unless you work at St George's Park in which case I apologise). 

I assume that he means effort in games which we can see from watching the games????

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2 hours ago, Thug said:

 

Because....?

And it's not highly edited.  That's exactly what he said.

Let me ask you, have you ever seen anything like that before? Ever? A reporter asks about a player, and you ignore that player completely and talk about someone else?  Not ONCE, but TWICE in the same interview?

He compared Kane to Shearer in 2017.

Last year he gave his thoughts on what he thought about people comparing Grealish to Gascoigne.  He said he doesn't think it is helpful to compare young players to some of the past greats.  Then went on to list about 5/6 other players that were "obviously" better than Jack, and basically suggested it was his own fans that were making the comparison.  

He was recently asked if he thought Bellingham was like Rio Ferdinand.  Did he list a bunch of players that were "obviously" better than Jude?  Did he say it wasn't helpful to compare to the past great players?  No. He said exactly what he should have said, and what he should've said when asked about Jack -   That these are the kinds of players that he should be trying to emulate etc etc. and gave encouragement to the player - not try to knock him down by saying "oh not a chance.".  [Although admittedly, a rather bizarre comparison question in the first place of Ferdinand and Bellingham]

 

Now I don't give two hoots about this anymore, but to call it silly to believe that he treated Jack differently from the rest of the players is just, well... silly. 

Like I said previously, I think he's over it now, and is starting to appreciate jack for his attributes. - but at that time, he made a monumental tit out of himself.

None of the above is bitterness of him not being picked.  I've already stated that Sterling is a very good player, and we won, and he scored, and that's absolutely fine.  And Jack is carrying a shin injury.

This is just in response to those who believe that Southgate  never had an issue with Jack.

He's picked him in the squad despite his covid rule breaking issues, and crashing his car, and now even though he's not fully fit.  He was all set to bring him on.  I really think he's over it, and is now picking his team on what he believes to be right.  Which is his prerogative. 

Have you ever thought that, the " issue " ( If ever there was one ) was less with Jack, and MORE to do with being hounded about Jack non stop?

- Manager wants to do his job, the way he wants to do it, slowly indoctrinating and getting to know a relatively new player in the system SHOCKER!!!

- Managers relationship with player gets better, the more he is around him and the squad, SHOCKER!!!

- Player gets more.playing time, as he gets more acclimatised to the system/style of play the manager likes SHOCKER!

Have you never seen managers get annoyed by being asked the same shite over and over again? Or annoyed at feeling pressured ( Usually by randoms who have zero experience ) into decisions when they are hired to make the decisions? ( Whether those decisions are ultimately right or wrong is another thing )

As a matter of fact, I've even seen Dean Smith get annoyed by constantly being asked about us not performing due to Jack's absence etc 

Can somebody post Samatta fans best bits/quotes, so people can realise why I keep making the comparison?

 

Edited by JAMAICAN-VILLAN
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1 minute ago, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said:

Have you ever thought that, the " issue " ( If ever there was one ) was less with Jack, and MORE to do with being hounded about Jack non stop?

- Manager wants to do his job, the way he wants to do it, slowly indoctrinating and getting to know a relatively new player in the system SHOCKER!!!

- Managers relationship with player gets better, the more he is around him and the squad, SHOCKER!!!

- Player gets more.playing time, as he gets more acclimatised to the system/style of play the manager likes SHOCKER!

Have you never seen managers get annoyed by being asked the same shite over and over again? Or annoyed at feeling pressured ( Usually by randoms who have zero experience ) into decisions when they are hired to make the decisions?

As a matter of fact, I've even seen Dean Smith get annoyed by constantly being asked about us not performing due to Jack's absence etc 

Can somebody post Samatta fans best bits/quotes, so people can realise why I keep making the comparison?

 

So what you’re saying is that he DID have an issue with Jack?

And that issue was that he didn’t like being told that he needed to play him?

You’re agreeing with my point

SHOCKER

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12 minutes ago, barry'sboots said:

It is impossible for anyone other than Safegate to conclude definitively on why Jack didn't feature on Sunday.

Wouldnt take a genius to theorise that it was Southgates plan all along to start Jack in both friendlies to get his fitness up and then rest him against Croatia. Also you seem to ignore the fact he almost did feature before Sterling scored. You seem to be looking for trouble where there is none. Do you also realise Jack is on a different training plan to the rest of the squad to manage his injury? That's why he trained on his own in the gym today.

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12 minutes ago, Thug said:

So what you’re saying is that he DID have an issue with Jack?

And that issue was that he didn’t like being told that he needed to play him?

You’re agreeing with my point

SHOCKER

Errrm... No.

( If there ever was one ) inside brackets, is key 

My point was that, MAYBE the issue was constantly being asked about him. NOT with him.

I mean, I like the attempt to wriggle that back into insinuating an issue with Jack, but.

Why didn't you say I was insinuating that Deano had an issue with Jack as well, since I made the same comment about him, in the same post you quoted? 🤦🏿

The selective comprehension on here, when convenient is incredible. 😂

People are being presented possibilities/reasoning which are much more aligned with logic, yet refuse to budge from the outlandish... Haha.

I'm out.

EDIT: Being the manager of a team, and wanting to select the players and system you prefer ( Based on a multitude of variables ), isn't an " Issue ", it's Managing.

 

 

Edited by JAMAICAN-VILLAN
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26 minutes ago, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said:

You should probably read back through the last few pages of the thread, and put things into context before selectively lifting content for jibes?

" That he now loves Villa ", the extreme in sarcasm doesn't divert from the middle ground, you know, where normalcy and logic usually lays.

Anyway... this is a pointless exercise.

I have read the last 20 pages or so tonight - I really need to get a life!  I saw some pictures posted of Safegate shaking hands with Jack as he leaves the pitch and then comments, including yours, that he has name checked Konsa, Cash and Targett etc. as unlucky not be selected as if they clearly show that Safegate has no issue with Jack, any more, or Villain general.

I am convinced that he has historically had an issue with Jack.  I don't know whether he still has an issue or not or whether he is just overly negative in his approach.  I'm not sure whether he has an issue with Villa, although I do struggle to see how Konsa didn't get into an England squad previously in front of Dier or, latterly, Godfrey.  

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