Woodytom Posted October 8, 2014 Share Posted October 8, 2014 (edited) I just wonder how many times/and for how long people will continue to show the patience with these kids - well not them specifically - but with our approach in terms of the transition to the first team from the youth team. It's quite poor in terms of actual quality. The number of youths that have made the first team is high however, necessity has played a big part in that. Right now, with jack, I'm seeing exactly what I've seen every single season for the past 6/7 years in terms of 'potential stars' at villa.I agree with most of your post, so only highlighting this section. You say our youth team is "quite poor in terms of actual quality" but I think we produce a lot of Premier League players? This isn't to say that they're on a par with Europes brightest talents, but quite a few players make the grade in the Premier League. They could be squad players at clubs or first team at others, but they're still good enough to be in that role. The difference with Grealish compared to many others (Delfouneso, Bannan and Gardner I suppose) is that the hype doesn't seem to relate to "this kid will be awesome at Villa" but moreso "this kid will be awesome". It's the differentiation between our club and football as a whole. Whether or not he turns out to be that good obviously remains to be seen, but, for me, it's just different with him.Fair and interesting points. On the quality part - you're right. We do produce a lot of prem league players and I suppose in that sense, were the victims of our own success (where my opinion is concerned) as I suppose I'm bored witless with journeymen being produced, and just want a superstar in the making to get me excited. Had we only produced 1 superstar in 20 years who was then sold no doubt, I'd probably be crying for a bit of consistency in producing 'half decent' players that we could mould a team out of, which we have done (albeit without much success in terms of results). So I suppose I'm wanting the best of both worlds which is probably asking for too much. You're 2nd point is a good one IMO, and an angle/view I'd neither recognised on this forum nor thought about. Edited October 8, 2014 by Woodytom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DelboyVilla Posted October 8, 2014 Share Posted October 8, 2014 People are so desperate to be outraged and show how calm and measured they are. Shame they want to show it by insulting others. Wouldn't be VT if it was any other way?? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DelboyVilla Posted October 8, 2014 Share Posted October 8, 2014 He had 15 minutes against **** man city. Get a grip. Exactly, how can people possibly be calling a performance 'embarrassing' in that situation? Their reaction is more embarrassing to be honest. Heard it all now? If Grealish was 'embarassing' then I don't think there is a word in the Engish language to describe how bad Bacuna looked. In the circumstances Jack did OK against City and defended well. The fact he was brought on the pitch under the circumstances is the only embarassing performance evident here as I can't imagine what Lambert was thinking? Fans call for youngster to get game time. Lambert gives youngster game time. Lambert in the wrong. ****. Hell. Yeah inspired management bringing on our least experienced player in a game where the pressure was on to hold out for a draw, where we had minimal possession and were starting to be over run? You honestly beleive that was valuable game time for Grealish? FFS he was only put on the bench at the last minute when Gabby had his funny turn! Sanchez, Clark or even Joe Cloe would have been more sensible options in the circumstances but Lambert can do no wrong though! Edit: When has Lambert ever done what the fans ask anyway? He left by now if that was the case? I think he shifted Grealish to be a more attacking option/outlet ball and brought Bacuna on at the same time to be defensively solid. He possibly even dared to think that we could nick a win and didn't want to go too defensive or something - I'm not the manager though, so I don't know. I haven't praised Lambert for this either. I'm pretty neutral to the substitution to be honest. I find it fairly hard to criticise bringing on a young player to get some game time against some of the best players in the country in a game that was 0-0 with 20 minutes left. I certainly don't attribute that subsitution to us losing the game - it just... happened. But yes, it's definitely a case of Lambert doing no wrong rather than Lambert doing no right. Definitely. I'd rather see Grealish reserved purely for games against "lesser" opposition. Probably Lambert's fault then too. I think Jack did OK and in no way had any influence on us winning or losing. And that's kind of the point really! But he had 20 minutes against one of the best teams in the land and hardly touched the ball! Managerial Magic! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bannedfromHandV Posted October 8, 2014 Share Posted October 8, 2014 (edited) I see no harm in it, he's now spent time on the pitch against some of the best players in Europe, he can only learn from it. The fact is that whoever we'd brought on would have been unlikely to have much impact in the game so whats the **** problem? Oh sorry, its another opportunity to have a pop at lambert obviously Edited October 8, 2014 by bannedfromHandV Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avfc1982 Posted October 8, 2014 Share Posted October 8, 2014 I see no harm in it, he's now spent time on the pitch against some of the best players in Europe, he can only learn from it. The fact is that whoever we'd brought on would have been unlikely to have much impact in the game so whats the **** problem? Oh sorry, its another opportunity to have a pop at lambert obviously You make it sound like he doesn't deserve it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bannedfromHandV Posted October 8, 2014 Share Posted October 8, 2014 I see no harm in it, he's now spent time on the pitch against some of the best players in Europe, he can only learn from it. The fact is that whoever we'd brought on would have been unlikely to have much impact in the game so whats the **** problem? Oh sorry, its another opportunity to have a pop at lambert obviously You make it sound like he doesn't deserve it. I think ive made my position pretty clear in the past and like most people I'm bored to death with doing the rounds of lambo vs lamberk. People get their knickers in a twist over it all and need a scapegoat, there's one manager and eleven players so it's easy to say it's all lamberts fault, because obviously, he sends teams out to lose and/or simply knows far less about football and tactics than us selection of geniuses 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avfc1982 Posted October 8, 2014 Share Posted October 8, 2014 I see no harm in it, he's now spent time on the pitch against some of the best players in Europe, he can only learn from it. The fact is that whoever we'd brought on would have been unlikely to have much impact in the game so whats the **** problem? Oh sorry, its another opportunity to have a pop at lambert obviously You make it sound like he doesn't deserve it. I think ive made my position pretty clear in the past and like most people I'm bored to death with doing the rounds of lambo vs lamberk. People get their knickers in a twist over it all and need a scapegoat, there's one manager and eleven players so it's easy to say it's all lamberts fault, because obviously, he sends teams out to lose and/or simply knows far less about football and tactics than us selection of geniuses I'm not saying it's 100% Lambert's fault but his tenure at Villa has been utterly shambolic so he has to take his portion of blame. I'm staggered he's still in a job considering the shit he has put us through. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bannedfromHandV Posted October 8, 2014 Share Posted October 8, 2014 I see no harm in it, he's now spent time on the pitch against some of the best players in Europe, he can only learn from it. The fact is that whoever we'd brought on would have been unlikely to have much impact in the game so whats the **** problem? Oh sorry, its another opportunity to have a pop at lambert obviously You make it sound like he doesn't deserve it. I think ive made my position pretty clear in the past and like most people I'm bored to death with doing the rounds of lambo vs lamberk. People get their knickers in a twist over it all and need a scapegoat, there's one manager and eleven players so it's easy to say it's all lamberts fault, because obviously, he sends teams out to lose and/or simply knows far less about football and tactics than us selection of geniuses I'm not saying it's 100% Lambert's fault but his tenure at Villa has been utterly shambolic so he has to take his portion of blame. I'm staggered he's still in a job considering the shit he has put us through. Well why stop there, it's been that bad surely we should just sack everyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobzy Posted October 8, 2014 Share Posted October 8, 2014 (edited) I think Jack did OK and in no way had any influence on us winning or losing. And that's kind of the point really! But he had 20 minutes against one of the best teams in the land and hardly touched the ball! Managerial Magic! I don't get your point at all. He came on, you think he did OK and had no influence on winning or losing. But this = Lambert's fault and he's a terrible manager? What? Furthermore, surely you see this as beneficial to Grealish? Edited October 8, 2014 by bobzy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted October 8, 2014 Share Posted October 8, 2014 He had 15 minutes against **** man city. Get a grip. Exactly, how can people possibly be calling a performance 'embarrassing' in that situation? Their reaction is more embarrassing to be honest. Heard it all now? If Grealish was 'embarassing' then I don't think there is a word in the Engish language to describe how bad Bacuna looked. In the circumstances Jack did OK against City and defended well. The fact he was brought on the pitch under the circumstances is the only embarassing performance evident here as I can't imagine what Lambert was thinking? Fans call for youngster to get game time. Lambert gives youngster game time. Lambert in the wrong. ****. Hell. Yeah inspired management bringing on our least experienced player in a game where the pressure was on to hold out for a draw, where we had minimal possession and were starting to be over run? You honestly beleive that was valuable game time for Grealish? FFS he was only put on the bench at the last minute when Gabby had his funny turn! Sanchez, Clark or even Joe Cloe would have been more sensible options in the circumstances but Lambert can do no wrong though! Edit: When has Lambert ever done what the fans ask anyway? He left by now if that was the case? I think he shifted Grealish to be a more attacking option/outlet ball and brought Bacuna on at the same time to be defensively solid. He possibly even dared to think that we could nick a win and didn't want to go too defensive or something - I'm not the manager though, so I don't know. I haven't praised Lambert for this either. I'm pretty neutral to the substitution to be honest. I find it fairly hard to criticise bringing on a young player to get some game time against some of the best players in the country in a game that was 0-0 with 20 minutes left. I certainly don't attribute that subsitution to us losing the game - it just... happened. But yes, it's definitely a case of Lambert doing no wrong rather than Lambert doing no right. Definitely. I'd rather see Grealish reserved purely for games against "lesser" opposition. Probably Lambert's fault then too. It's been said before. but certainly a substitution changed the course of that game. It wasn't ours though. City looked much better when Fernando came on, he brought more energy and drive and freed up Toure to get forward. That's what won them the game (that, and a small lapse of concentration from Delph, which I think we can obviously all forgive him for). 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingman Posted October 8, 2014 Share Posted October 8, 2014 I'm sure it will all come out in the wash in the end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SikhInTrinity Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 He had 15 minutes against **** man city. Get a grip. Exactly, how can people possibly be calling a performance 'embarrassing' in that situation? Their reaction is more embarrassing to be honest. Heard it all now? If Grealish was 'embarassing' then I don't think there is a word in the Engish language to describe how bad Bacuna looked. In the circumstances Jack did OK against City and defended well. The fact he was brought on the pitch under the circumstances is the only embarassing performance evident here as I can't imagine what Lambert was thinking? Fans call for youngster to get game time. Lambert gives youngster game time. Lambert in the wrong. ****. Hell. Yeah inspired management bringing on our least experienced player in a game where the pressure was on to hold out for a draw, where we had minimal possession and were starting to be over run? You honestly beleive that was valuable game time for Grealish? FFS he was only put on the bench at the last minute when Gabby had his funny turn! Sanchez, Clark or even Joe Cloe would have been more sensible options in the circumstances but Lambert can do no wrong though! Edit: When has Lambert ever done what the fans ask anyway? He left by now if that was the case? I think he shifted Grealish to be a more attacking option/outlet ball and brought Bacuna on at the same time to be defensively solid. He possibly even dared to think that we could nick a win and didn't want to go too defensive or something - I'm not the manager though, so I don't know. I haven't praised Lambert for this either. I'm pretty neutral to the substitution to be honest. I find it fairly hard to criticise bringing on a young player to get some game time against some of the best players in the country in a game that was 0-0 with 20 minutes left. I certainly don't attribute that subsitution to us losing the game - it just... happened. But yes, it's definitely a case of Lambert doing no wrong rather than Lambert doing no right. Definitely. I'd rather see Grealish reserved purely for games against "lesser" opposition. Probably Lambert's fault then too. It's been said before. but certainly a substitution changed the course of that game. It wasn't ours though. City looked much better when Fernando came on, he brought more energy and drive and freed up Toure to get forward. That's what won them the game (that, and a small lapse of concentration from Delph, which I think we can obviously all forgive him for). Spot on, when Pellegrini left Lampard and Toure, we got alot more joy, he then decided to take Dzeko off, put Fernando in midfield and dominate that area again, If City played with 3 in midfield I think they would smash quite a few teams, but Pellegrini likes the 4 in midfield with two up top for some reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DelboyVilla Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 (edited) I think Jack did OK and in no way had any influence on us winning or losing. And that's kind of the point really! But he had 20 minutes against one of the best teams in the land and hardly touched the ball! Managerial Magic! I don't get your point at all. He came on, you think he did OK and had no influence on winning or losing. But this = Lambert's fault and he's a terrible manager? What? Furthermore, surely you see this as beneficial to Grealish? I know you are struggling to understand so I will make it simpler for you. Generally when a manager makes a substitution he is using that player to have an influence on the game and try to change the outcome/result. Therefore when a substitution makes no difference then the manager has failed in what he tried to do. This is par for the course for Lambert as he is useless! It's not Jack's fault but IMO Sanchez would have made more sense if we were hanging in for the draw! Edited October 9, 2014 by DelboyVilla Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Qwpzxjor1 Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 Grealish was never going to get much of a look in against Zabaletta. He's arguably the best right back in the league, and certainly one of the most experienced. I'm not sure how beneficial it was for him to be honest, and when the game was still in the balance and N'Zogbia was causing them the most concerns, I have to chalk that up as a poorly judged substitution. Jack will have good days, and hopefully will be a big player for us, but Man City he neither influenced the game (except to replace the one player who was influecing things for us), nor learnt any real lessons, other than that Zabaletta is a bit too good for him. In my humble opinion, of course. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
troon_villan Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 Grealish was never going to get much of a look in against Zabaletta. He's arguably the best right back in the league, and certainly one of the most experienced. I'm not sure how beneficial it was for him to be honest, and when the game was still in the balance and N'Zogbia was causing them the most concerns, I have to chalk that up as a poorly judged substitution. Jack will have good days, and hopefully will be a big player for us, but Man City he neither influenced the game (except to replace the one player who was influecing things for us), nor learnt any real lessons, other than that Zabaletta is a bit too good for him. In my humble opinion, of course. Dat humble opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobzy Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 I think Jack did OK and in no way had any influence on us winning or losing. And that's kind of the point really! But he had 20 minutes against one of the best teams in the land and hardly touched the ball! Managerial Magic! I don't get your point at all. He came on, you think he did OK and had no influence on winning or losing. But this = Lambert's fault and he's a terrible manager? What? Furthermore, surely you see this as beneficial to Grealish? I know you are struggling to understand so I will make it simpler for you. Generally when a manager makes a substitution he is using that player to have an influence on the game and try to change the outcome/result. Therefore when a substitution makes no difference then the manager has failed in what he tried to do. This is par for the course for Lambert as he is useless! It's not Jack's fault but IMO Sanchez would have made more sense if we were hanging in for the draw! Great logics dude. P.S: IF we were hanging on for a draw, and not seeking to nick a winner. Are you Paul Lambert? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AntrimBlack Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 I see no harm in it, he's now spent time on the pitch against some of the best players in Europe, he can only learn from it. The fact is that whoever we'd brought on would have been unlikely to have much impact in the game so whats the **** problem? Oh sorry, its another opportunity to have a pop at lambert obviously You make it sound like he doesn't deserve it. I think ive made my position pretty clear in the past and like most people I'm bored to death with doing the rounds of lambo vs lamberk. People get their knickers in a twist over it all and need a scapegoat, there's one manager and eleven players so it's easy to say it's all lamberts fault, because obviously, he sends teams out to lose and/or simply knows far less about football and tactics than us selection of geniuses I'm not saying it's 100% Lambert's fault but his tenure at Villa has been utterly shambolic so he has to take his portion of blame. I'm staggered he's still in a job considering the shit he has put us through. Well why stop there, it's been that bad surely we should just sack everyone. There are times when we really need the tick boxes to be `like', dislike', and `stupid'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fightoffyour Posted October 10, 2014 VT Supporter Share Posted October 10, 2014 It was a poor substitution because it didn't work. City totally dominated the midfield with Fernando and we had no answer. But if Grealish had created a bit of magic, or drawn a free kick that Bacuna put away, we'd all be creaming ourselves. So in hindsight, Sanchez might have been a better option, but I can see the what Lambert tried to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rodders0223 Posted October 10, 2014 Share Posted October 10, 2014 It wasn't a poor substitution, we were under the cost and Lambert saw it is a chance to bring on a player who was going to pick up the ball, and take players on, get us further up the pitch, draw fouls and relieve the pressure of the defence. It didn't work out, but the reasoning was sound. If Lambert had brought on a defensive minded player to consolidate, I imagine he would have got pelters for that 'Best form of defence is attack, negative, too defensive etc' Every substitution is a gamble really, a punt. That is why it annoys we when someone says 'brilliant substitution', sometimes they work and more often than not, they don't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted October 10, 2014 Share Posted October 10, 2014 (edited) They usually don't work when we have players that cannot make an effect. Grealish is a young talent, I too thought he maybe could have given us that outlet ball to relieve the pressure...I was wrong as was Lambert. no disrespect to the lad, he is learning his trade. unfortunatley for us for one reason or another, we have too many occasions when subs struggle to make any effect when they come on. Edited October 10, 2014 by TRO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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