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Jack Grealish

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4 hours ago, villan-scott said:

Superb post. Glad someone took the time to squash the ‘Jacks doing nothing’ Nonsense. 

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I agree, it was a good post. But is anyone actually saying that Jack is doing nothing?

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8 hours ago, Avfc1590 said:

Can i ask how my post was silly? 

It’s pretty silly to insinuate that some fans think Jack hasn’t played well unless he’s dribbled past 20 players and done a somersault.

I’m one of the fans that would like Jack to attempt to take on a few more players with his exceptional dribbling ability, like he did in Championship. Whilst also seeing that he has played well (even if not to his full potential yet). 

Do I deserve to be mocked with a sarcastic response also, because I want Jack to attempt a few more dribbles?

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40 minutes ago, Vive_La_Villa said:

I love Villa but I need money. 

Edit. Saying that I’ve lost a lot betting on villa in the past. Maybe @KenjiOgiwara is on to something. Hopefully in the nicest possible way he doesn’t win to many of those bets this season. 

I love Villa but I need money, and to get it, I'm banking on the worst possible scenario for my club.

If I succeed then the club fails, if the club succeeds then I made a poor investment.

I'm not disputing anyone's ability to win themselves some money by betting against their team.

I just can't really imagine a scenario where there's not a disappointment as a result of doing so.

You're either apathetic about the success of the club or apathetic about the success of your dollar.

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5 minutes ago, A'Villan said:

I love Villa but I need money, and to get it, I'm banking on the worst possible scenario for my club.

If I succeed then the club fails, if the club succeeds then I made a poor investment.

I'm not disputing anyone's ability to win themselves some money by betting against their team.

I just can't really imagine a scenario where there's not a disappointment as a result of doing so.

You're either apathetic about the success of the club or apathetic about the success of your dollar.

As a regular better, I’m honestly not bothered if I lose a tenner. I’ll have a bet for fun, and if it loses, it hasn’t broke the bank and there’s always next week.

If I throw together a 5-fold and happen to put in a Villa loss as the last result, I’ll usually forget about the bet while the game is on (I can’t be looking at cashouts while watching the game!), knowing that I’ll either be happy with a Villa win or draw, or happy with the consolation of a winning bet.

Your explanation seem to be from the position of someone who probably shouldn’t gamble (I’m not saying you, I’m just saying your explanation). If losing a bet is going to effect someone negatively then they shouldn’t bet. ‘Bet what you can afford to lose’, I think they say.

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11 minutes ago, Rob182 said:

It’s pretty silly to insinuate that some fans think Jack hasn’t played well unless he’s dribbled past 20 players and done a somersault.

I’m one of the fans that would like Jack to attempt to take on a few more players with his exceptional dribbling ability, like he did in Championship. Whilst also seeing that he has played well (even if not to his full potential yet). 

Do I deserve to be mocked with a sarcastic response also, because I want Jack to attempt a few more dribbles?

If you also hope he is replaced so there can be a more reasoned debate on Villatalk then yes, Yes you do. 

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1 minute ago, Vive_La_Villa said:

If you also hope he is replaced so there can be a more reasoned debate on Villatalk then yes, Yes you do. 

I don’t. But I also don’t think fellow fans with a different opinion on a player should have their views over exaggerated for effect. **** somersaults. Yes. That’s what people who want to see more from Grealish are hoping for. Gymnastics. 

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Just now, Rob182 said:

I don’t. But I also don’t think fellow fans with a different opinion on a player should have their views over exaggerated for effect. **** somersaults. Yes. That’s what people who want to see more from Grealish are hoping for. Gymnastics. 

I agree but that exaggerated response wasn’t an immediate response to an opinion on Jack.  Quite a lot of nonsense proceeded it.  E.g.  terms like butthurt fan club and Jack being wanked off for 6 months. 

I get where you’re coming from though. 

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The criticism of Grealish lately has verged on trolling and being contrarian for the sake of it. Imho he has had a reasonable start. Is he the finished article, not yet, but I will lay money that he will be.. FFS we are three games into our return to the PL with loads of new players settling into arguably the best league in the world. We lost the first to last years European Cup finalists, lost the second because of errors by ‘new’ players but showed enough to suggest we would be improve and against a talented Everton side did just that. 

Grealish Is a huge talent and imho will make his doubters eat their words. KTF., UTV!

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28 minutes ago, Rob182 said:

As a regular better, I’m honestly not bothered if I lose a tenner. I’ll have a bet for fun, and if it loses, it hasn’t broke the bank and there’s always next week.

If I throw together a 5-fold and happen to put in a Villa loss as the last result, I’ll usually forget about the bet while the game is on (I can’t be looking at cashouts while watching the game!), knowing that I’ll either be happy with a Villa win or draw, or happy with the consolation of a winning bet.

Your explanation seem to be from the position of someone who probably shouldn’t gamble (I’m not saying you, I’m just saying your explanation). If losing a bet is going to effect someone negatively then they shouldn’t bet. ‘Bet what you can afford to lose’, I think they say.

Don't mind me. I don't even bet. I'm just sharing my thoughts on the matter. Perhaps not worded as well as I'd intended.

That's great that you bet with amounts that are affordable. I only lend what I can afford to lose, so I can relate to the wisdom in that principle.

However the aim of placing a bet is in the hope that it comes good and you gain on your initial investment, yes?

So all I'm saying is I can't really understand why you bet against the team you support, as in doing so you are guaranteed disappointment one way or the other.

Villa wins, you're betting outcome is not what you wanted, Villa loses, then the outcome of the game is not what you wanted.

As I said, don't mind me, I just can't understand why of all the bets that can be made, why you'd choose that one.

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I think Grealish is partly a victim of the Fantasy Football (goals/assists/saves/blocks) approach to measuring player performance, which tends to ignore all the stuff that happens in the middle of the park. Especially because he is seen as a creative playmaker.

These players are obviously well above him in terms of ability, but in playing style and positioning he reminds me a bit of Zidane or Iniesta. Players with the touch and dribbling skills of a winger or number 10, but who could comfortably drop into a central midfield role.

What they all have in common is relatively unimpressive goal / assist stats. But wriggling past three men in the middle of the park can be as important as the final ball in making a goal happen.

Zidane was a 1 in 5 goalscorer, Iniesta less than 1 in 10. Even when you add assists into the mix, they're still way behind players like Lampard, Gerrard, etc. So it's nonsense to suggest this type of midfielder's only job is to be directly involved in goals, and that when they aren't doing that they don't serve a purpose.

(Just to reiterate I'm not saying Jack is the next Zidane or Iniesta, but his role in our team is very similar.)

This type of midfielder's job is to give everyone an easy outball, recycle possession, dictate the pace of play, create space for other players, and get the ball into the final third. It's their ability to receive a difficult pass under pressure and wriggle away from markers that makes them so useful, because they turn bad possession (trapped against the touchline or double marked or whatever) into good quality possession (attacking space).

The whole flaw with the possession philosophy was always that not all possession is created equal. Sometimes the team without the ball is in control. Jack usually manages to take a situation where we have possession but not control, and turn it into a situation where we have both.

Sadly I think the only way to prove his doubters wrong is for him to get injured, and witness the consequent drop in form.

 

 

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1 hour ago, KentVillan said:

I think Grealish is partly a victim of the Fantasy Football (goals/assists/saves/blocks) approach to measuring player performance, which tends to ignore all the stuff that happens in the middle of the park. Especially because he is seen as a creative playmaker.

These players are obviously well above him in terms of ability, but in playing style and positioning he reminds me a bit of Zidane or Iniesta. Players with the touch and dribbling skills of a winger or number 10, but who could comfortably drop into a central midfield role.

What they all have in common is relatively unimpressive goal / assist stats. But wriggling past three men in the middle of the park can be as important as the final ball in making a goal happen.

Zidane was a 1 in 5 goalscorer, Iniesta less than 1 in 10. Even when you add assists into the mix, they're still way behind players like Lampard, Gerrard, etc. So it's nonsense to suggest this type of midfielder's only job is to be directly involved in goals, and that when they aren't doing that they don't serve a purpose.

(Just to reiterate I'm not saying Jack is the next Zidane or Iniesta, but his role in our team is very similar.)

This type of midfielder's job is to give everyone an easy outball, recycle possession, dictate the pace of play, create space for other players, and get the ball into the final third. It's their ability to receive a difficult pass under pressure and wriggle away from markers that makes them so useful, because they turn bad possession (trapped against the touchline or double marked or whatever) into good quality possession (attacking space).

The whole flaw with the possession philosophy was always that not all possession is created equal. Sometimes the team without the ball is in control. Jack usually manages to take a situation where we have possession but not control, and turn it into a situation where we have both.

Sadly I think the only way to prove his doubters wrong is for him to get injured, and witness the consequent drop in form.

 

 

 Interesting just came on to post that I've been mildly critical that I think goals and assists will come but he looks like he's trying to hard but still contributing to our attack. 

I'm a fantasy football player that relies heavily on stats and ability to earn bonus points is important. 

I just looked up bonus base stats(base stats relevant midfield contributions excluding assist and goal bonus points) for midfielders and Jack is 2nd tied with Lanzini only behind Kevin De Bruyne. Wow

Edited by Kiwivillan

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33 minutes ago, Kiwivillan said:

 Interesting just came on to post that I've been mildly critical that I think goals and assists will come but he looks like he's trying to hard but still contributing to our attack. 

I'm a fantasy football player that relies heavily on stats and ability to earn bonus points is important. 

I just looked up bonus base stats(base stats relevant midfield contributions excluding assist and goal bonus points) for midfielders and Jack is 2nd tied with Lanzini only behind Kevin De Bruyne. Wow

But despite that he is of course dog shit, and the people who do those stats are chronically butt hurt worshippers at the holy altar of St Jaccus Grealitius.

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8 hours ago, A'Villan said:

@KenjiOgiwara

You do realise Grealish is the 4th most fouled played and 5th best in the league for key passes played across the entire league. He also passes with a 86% success rate.

This doesn't really align with your notion that Grealish makes more square passes than he should and slows down the pace of an attack unnecessarily.

It's quite the opposite. He covered the pitch in 3 or 4 touches against Spurs and still played a ball that ended with an attempt for Trezeguet.

He's assisted Luiz from out-wide in the final third with a pass that allowed Luiz enough time on the ball to adjust himself and score.

I wouldn't be surprised cause he stalls so much on the foul and always seeks the free kick. But you are wrong there. It does align. From what I can see his not 5th either, he's on a shared 7th. And that's key passes per game. When Grealish is given the ball all the time to pass it backwards or sideways, obviously some of those will lead to a key pass. The more passes you have the more likely you are to get a key pass. He's basically our main man, and after two home matches where we are supposed to have a lot of possession, it's no surprise he has a few key passes. Unless they've changed it, it's basically just a pass that leads to a shot or go at goal isn't it? 

And giving him credit for Luiz solo goal is just absurd. Like SGC said any idiot could make that pass backwards. It was nothing creative about it. That was 100% Luiz individual skill, and trying to pretend Grealish had anything to do with that is just insulting to Luiz. Grealish made a pass connection and didn't lose possession, which is something he's excellent at, but that's where it stops. Lets just keep the praise for when it's actually deserved. But based on this thread we all know that's not the case with JG. 

Edited by KenjiOgiwara

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6 minutes ago, KenjiOgiwara said:

I wouldn't be surprised cause he stalls so much on the foul and always seeks the free kick. But you are wrong there. It does align. From what I can see his not 5th either, he's on a shared 7th. And that's key passes per game. When Grealish is given the ball all the time to pass it backwards or sideways, obviously some of those will lead to a key pass. The more passes you have the more likely you are to get a key pass. He's basically our main man, and after two home matches where we are supposed to have a lot of possession, it's no surprise he has a few key passes. Unless they've changed it, it's basically just a pass that leads to a shot or go at goal isn't it? 

And giving him credit for Luiz solo goal is just absurd. Like SGC said any idiot could make that pass backwards. It was nothing creative about it. That was 100% Luiz individual skill, and trying to pretend Grealish had anything to do with that is just insulting to Luiz. Grealish made a pass connection and didn't lose possession, which is something he's excellent at, but that's where it stops. Lets just keep the praise for when it's actually deserved. But based on this thread we all know that's not the case with JG. 

I think he's 5th for total key passes, 7th for key passes per game. Yes, it means the final pass that leads to a shot from a teammate.

No it's not fair to say that the more passes a player makes, then the more key passes they will also have. Look at the numbers from this season if you don't believe me.

There's a reason De Bruyne has/was best for key passes played and that's because he's a guy who can make attacks happen by playing in teammates with quality.

You would know as a DLP yourself that you would have more key passes than a holding midfielder playing alongside you who might have just as many passes in general.

The difference is one is a catalyst for an attacking move, whereas the other is often just used to work the defensive shape and doesn't have much attacking potency.

I personally don't see where you are going with this. Yes, he is our main man at times, but he is also playing a different role to the one where he enjoyed creative license previously.

He's more of a box-to-box midfielder at the moment, rather than an attacking midfielder who can position himself and reserve energy solely for the final third.

As for crediting Grealish for the Luiz goal it is not absurd, I find your reluctance to acknowledge the importance of the less glorious aspects of play a bit frustrating.

But I'm not going to go and start exaggerating things by calling your perspectives absurd or far-fetched, because they are different to how I would call it.

Grealish attacks the left side of the box, draws in two defenders and the attention of everyone momentarily. His pass was basic yes, and so? How else should've he played it?

The pass was weighted so that no defender could close out on Luiz, and gave Luiz a good chance to set himself to take on what was an excellent finish.

I think Luiz would credit his teammate before taking insult as you suggest.

 

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16 hours ago, useless said:

I think Grealish is much more of a natural footballer than Maddison. Maddison is someone who can get goals and offer creativity in the final third, but he can't run games in the same way that Grealish can,  you'd never play Maddison in a midfield three, and expect him to dictate the pace of the game, I don't mean this a criticism as it's true for a lot of players that play in his position, but he's more of an highlights player, whereas Grealish is constantly involved all over the pitch.

Maddison did play in a midfield 3 last season, and we played most of our best football when he played there with Ndidi and Tielemans, in fact it is the one criticism I have of Rodgers so far this season that he doesn’t play him there usually until the 2nd half when he subs on a winger.

He is more than capable playing that position and would regularly come deep to collect the ball to dictate the tempo and get us moving forward

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I think you have to compare players of similar roles. Comparing the key passes of a ballplaying defender to a playmaker is utterly pointless for instance. I just find using the fact that Grealish is between 7th-9th place on key passes, to rather uninteresting. Cause it doesn't say a lot about his performance at all, and my point was simply that there's no error in saying he passes a lot backwards and sideways even, if he has some key passes. 

Now for what it's worth, I think Grealish is a fantastic passer of the ball, so I wouldn't be surprised if he improved on that key passing over the season, but I still want him to be more direct, cause we need more attacking influence from him. 

I can see what you're saying that's he's more a box-to-box midfielder atm, but for me his offensive performance has to outweight his obvious defensive flaws, and I just can't see it from the last three matches.

Anyway, I am looking forward to see how it progresses this season. 

 

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When Grealish plays as a 'midfielder', that's the position he plays, not behind the striker as a traditional No 10, or as a wide forward as a lot of people seem to think, and leads them to criticize his goals and assist stats (which are actually pretty good). Besides like I said I don't really get comparing Grealish with Maddison, as for the most part they play in different positions, same with comparing him to Harry Wilson and Mount.

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2 hours ago, KenjiOgiwara said:

I wouldn't be surprised cause he stalls so much on the foul and always seeks the free kick. But you are wrong there. It does align. From what I can see his not 5th either, he's on a shared 7th. And that's key passes per game. When Grealish is given the ball all the time to pass it backwards or sideways, obviously some of those will lead to a key pass. The more passes you have the more likely you are to get a key pass. He's basically our main man, and after two home matches where we are supposed to have a lot of possession, it's no surprise he has a few key passes. Unless they've changed it, it's basically just a pass that leads to a shot or go at goal isn't it? 

And giving him credit for Luiz solo goal is just absurd. Like SGC said any idiot could make that pass backwards. It was nothing creative about it. That was 100% Luiz individual skill, and trying to pretend Grealish had anything to do with that is just insulting to Luiz. Grealish made a pass connection and didn't lose possession, which is something he's excellent at, but that's where it stops. Lets just keep the praise for when it's actually deserved. But based on this thread we all know that's not the case with JG. 

Maybe he doesn’t deserve credit but the contribution is worth acknowledging. I would have done the same regardless of which player laid it off. Too often players just look to put the ball in to the box even if a pass isn’t on rather than keeping the ball.  

The rest was all about Luiz.

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