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Jack Grealish

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Then isn't it also a positive that other players are stepping up and looking good or even better? 

Edited by Skruff

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17 minutes ago, Rob182 said:

Without the use of stats, studying or otherwise, here's my rough take on the 'Grealish was okay, but not good or great' opinion:

Last season, after Jack came back from injury, it was nearly always him or McGinn who looked like our best player. Mings also got a lot of plaudits, rightly, but I think I'm right in saying that Jack and McGinn were usually the best two.

Against Bournemouth I'd say that McGinn, Douglas (after the error), Engels, Mings, Elmo and Trezequet were all better than Jack. That's not to say that Jack didn't do good things, but I didn't come out of the game thinking that Jack and McGinn had ran the show, like I did for 80% of our 2019 Championship games.

Maybe it's because we've now surrounded Jack with better players? Or maybe it's because it's just one game (it's not fair to judge Jack on his creativity in the Spurs game where we were backs to the wall for so long), but I don't feel like he's looked like the £35m-price-tag Grealish that Spurs wanted, when he's been outplayed by £8-10m players in our line-up.

Of course, it's subjective, it's one game, stats will prove me otherwise yada yada yada. I'm just saying. Is it expecting too much, to want Jack to look like one of our best players? Maybe. But I didn't want Jack to step up and then look like just another lower Prem player, I wanted him to step up his game and run the show like we know he can.

But this is where it's ridiculous to dismiss any post that includes them. And because its subjective, i'd say some of the criticism seems to be because its Jack Grealish. 

You said you left the Bournemouth game coming away thinking Mcginn was one of our best players and Jack wasn't. 

Yet mcginn touched the ball less, made less passes, completed less passes, made less key passes, made less tackles, and was dispossessed on the ball more. 

But pointing that out according to @Ingram85makes you a nerd that takes things too seriously and doesn't just want a chat. 

 

 

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22 minutes ago, Rob182 said:

Without the use of stats, studying or otherwise, here's my rough take on the 'Grealish was okay, but not good or great' opinion:

Last season, after Jack came back from injury, it was nearly always him or McGinn who looked like our best player. Mings also got a lot of plaudits, rightly, but I think I'm right in saying that Jack and McGinn were usually the best two.

Against Bournemouth I'd say that McGinn, Douglas (after the error), Engels, Mings, Elmo and Trezequet were all better than Jack. That's not to say that Jack didn't do good things, but I didn't come out of the game thinking that Jack and McGinn had ran the show, like I did for 80% of our 2019 Championship games.

Maybe it's because we've now surrounded Jack with better players? Or maybe it's because it's just one game (it's not fair to judge Jack on his creativity in the Spurs game where we were backs to the wall for so long), but I don't feel like he's looked like the £35m-price-tag Grealish that Spurs wanted, when he's been outplayed by £8-10m players in our line-up.

Of course, it's subjective, it's one game, stats will prove me otherwise yada yada yada. I'm just saying. Is it expecting too much, to want Jack to look like one of our best players? Maybe. But I didn't want Jack to step up and then look like just another lower Prem player, I wanted him to step up his game and run the show like we know he can.

Hand up I had some outsized expectations given Jack's dominance in the Championship.  I expected him to roll into the Prem skinning players for fun.  About halftime of the Spurs game I had completely readjusted my expectations.  The Prem is just a whole different animal.  Jack has played well.  Could he better, absolutely.   I have faith that Dean and the staff will find that extra level as the season progresses.  

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There's this weird modern phenomenon, mostly in the internet, where people think they're some kind of martyr for having a diverging opinion. This is a forum, everyone is posting their opinion and from what I can tell nobody is being banned for them. If your opinion is getting a lot of scrutiny, just back it up which should be easy if you think it's true.

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Just now, DCJonah said:

But this is where it's ridiculous to dismiss any post that includes them. And because its subjective, i'd say some of the criticism seems to be because its Jack Grealish. 

You said you left the Bournemouth game coming away thinking Mcginn was one of our best players and Jack wasn't. 

Yet mcginn touched the ball less, made less passes, completed less passes, made less key passes, made less tackles, and was dispossessed on the ball more. 

But pointing that out according to @Ingram85makes you a nerd that takes things too seriously and doesn't just want a chat. 

I haven't dismissed any posts that include them. I'm simply stating my opinion. I'm not the one saying that others are wrong because of stats.

The stats go against what I've taken from the game, but I think part of McGinn's game doesn't even rely on touches, it's his workrate in the box-to-box role, closing down players and putting himself about. Maybe his closing down didn't result in touches and tackles, but I came away from the game feeling like he'd done more than Jack. Did he have two shots saved, whereas Jack missed the target with both of his shots? (I'm not being funny, I'm genuinely asking).

I saw a table on Twitter earlier of the players that had the top ten amount of 'key passes' in the Premier League this weekend. Other than De Bruyne, I think the rest of the players were from Norwich, Villa, Burnley and Bournemouth. That alone, makes me question what these websites are deeming to be 'key passes'.

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I think people read too much into stats, football's characterized by subtle shades of meaning and expression.

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In 2 games he has an assist and should have a goal. 

For the majority of the game against a team like spurs he played really well. He also had a good game against bournemouth. 

 

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22 minutes ago, Skruff said:

Then isn't it also a positive that other players are stepping up and looking good or even better? 

Yes, which was one of the 'maybe's that I'd included.

But the flipside of it, is that if you'd told me before the season that Taylor and Elmo would have (subjectively) played better than Jack in our first two games of the season, I'd have given you a colouring book and some crayons and walked away giggling like a schoolgirl. :lol:

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1 minute ago, Rob182 said:

I haven't dismissed any posts that include them. I'm simply stating my opinion. I'm not the one saying that others are wrong because of stats.

The stats go against what I've taken from the game, but I think part of McGinn's game doesn't even rely on touches, it's his workrate in the box-to-box role, closing down players and putting himself about. Maybe his closing down didn't result in touches and tackles, but I came away from the game feeling like he'd done more than Jack. Did he have two shots saved, whereas Jack missed the target with both of his shots? (I'm not being funny, I'm genuinely asking).

I saw a table on Twitter earlier of the players that had the top ten amount of 'key passes' in the Premier League this weekend. Other than De Bruyne, I think the rest of the players were from Norwich, Villa, Burnley and Bournemouth. That alone, makes me question what these websites are deeming to be 'key passes'.

Yeah, to be fair it wasn't you who dismissed them. 

Agreed about mcginn, there are things he does that can't be recorded on a stats sheet. 

I just get the impression some are jumping on Grealish a bit much. Maybe i'm being too defensive.  

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6 minutes ago, Rightdm00 said:

Hand up I had some outsized expectations given Jack's dominance in the Championship.  I expected him to roll into the Prem skinning players for fun.  About halftime of the Spurs game I had completely readjusted my expectations.  The Prem is just a whole different animal.  Jack has played well.  Could he better, absolutely.   I have faith that Dean and the staff will find that extra level as the season progresses.  

I didn't expect him to roll into the Prem and skin players like he did in the Championship. Against Championship teams he looked head and shoulders above most teams we played. I thought it would be a difficult step up for him, but I felt that he would, at least, be able to 'do a Jack' against the bottom half teams.

(Again, it's early days, we've played two games).

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4 minutes ago, DCJonah said:

Yeah, to be fair it wasn't you who dismissed them. 

Agreed about mcginn, there are things he does that can't be recorded on a stats sheet. 

I just get the impression some are jumping on Grealish a bit much. Maybe i'm being too defensive.  

 

8 minutes ago, Keyblade said:

There's this weird modern phenomenon, mostly in the internet, where people think they're some kind of martyr for having a diverging opinion. This is a forum, everyone is posting their opinion and from what I can tell nobody is being banned for them. If your opinion is getting a lot of scrutiny, just back it up which should be easy if you think it's true.

Speaking for myself, I took more of an issue with posts saying things like "You can have that opinion if you want, but you'd be wrong". That's not what this forum is for.

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20 minutes ago, DCJonah said:

But this is where it's ridiculous to dismiss any post that includes them. And because its subjective, i'd say some of the criticism seems to be because its Jack Grealish. 

You said you left the Bournemouth game coming away thinking Mcginn was one of our best players and Jack wasn't. 

Yet mcginn touched the ball less, made less passes, completed less passes, made less key passes, made less tackles, and was dispossessed on the ball more. 

But pointing that out according to @Ingram85makes you a nerd that takes things too seriously and doesn't just want a chat. 

original.gif

 

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2 minutes ago, Rob182 said:

I didn't expect him to roll into the Prem and skin players like he did in the Championship. Against Championship teams he looked head and shoulders above most teams we played. I thought it would be a difficult step up for him, but I felt that he would, at least, be able to 'do a Jack' against the bottom half teams.

(Again, it's early days, we've played two games).

the interest for me wasn't so much his ability to skin players or glide past them it was if the opposition would single him out, double team him, can he draw opponents out of position and then find his team mates in space

those Bournemouth pictures to me say yes he still can to a degree

what will Chelsea do with kante against him? just play their normal game like he's nothing special or shadow him for 90 minutes? if they do will that make him completely ineffective?

spurs I think played their own game and had a lot of the ball resulting in him being ineffective, I think that's the biggest problem we will have, lower average possession stats meaning there is more emphasis on when we do have it, it looks like everton lined up vs Watford with 2 deeper midfielders in gomes and gbamin so it could be tight in there for him

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I'm not sure what all the fuss is about.

I haven't seen much of Jack in the championship, so I have little to compare to....

... but I am loving watching him in the PL.

  • He wants the ball.
  • He's constantly involved.
  • He's all over the pitch.
  • He drives the opposition batty (hello Billing - I'm looking at you!).
  • He's comfortable on the ball.
  • He has a good eye for what is around him.
  • Most of our play goes through him and he is the driving force of the side.

And you are telling me he hasn't played well? If so, I am sooooo looking forward to an "in form" Grealish! Bring it on!

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@villa4europe That'll definitely be an interesting subplot throughout the season.

Last year he was doubled-up on, but then when teams started to fear El Ghazi and Tammy as well, they occasionally had to reduce their concentration on him from 2-men down to 1, and I feel like that was when Jack really shone, taking on players for fun, which often moved him into an area of space to create a dangerous attack.

As you say, he did that job against Bournemouth for Dougie's goal, but tbf, Dougie did have to put in a wonderf*ck of a strike for us to benefit from Jack pulling men aside. That won't happen every week. I'd be (pleasantly) surprised if we score many goals better than that this season! (My fingers are fully crossed on that part. Over to you Jack and John)

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2 minutes ago, Vive_La_Villa said:

Some of you lot don’t deserve Jack!!

Jack off

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6 hours ago, Stevo985 said:

I don't think anyone is saying that.

All we're saying in this discussion is that Grealish did some work in creating that chance.

You've framed it as he failed to beat his man and out of desperation made a backwards pass to stop us losing the ball (not that there's anything wrong with that)

But it's so much more than that. As has already been pointed out, he didn't try to beat the man. He dummied to beat him on the left which gave him the space to pass inside. And him carrying the ball into the box was what drew the bournemouth midfielder towards him which created the space for Luiz.

 

Passing that off as nothing is, like I said, being deliberately negative about it. Which is a really weird thing to do for one of our best players. You keep saying ANY of our wingers would have done what he did. Firstly, I don't think that's true. I think it's more likely our wingers WOULD have tried to beat the man on the outside and then put a cross in.

Secondly, even if our wingers did do the same thing, that doesn't mean it's suddenly not creating a chance. 

Stevo, you're 100% correct here. Mind boggling people think otherwise. 

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Let's be realistic here, Grealish had an off day. He wasn't at his usual best, anyone disputing that clearly didn't watch the full 90 minutes.

However in saying this he was still our biggest threat, he showed this in working the space for Luiz's goal. 

 

He totalled 6 Key Passes in the game, last season his average was 4 per game. So in that respect he is still creating chances despite the step up to the PL.

However, his pass success rate against Bournemouth was 79.6% (although very good), last season his average was 85.2%. And this showed during the game as he misplaced more passes than usual.

The last time he fell below 80% pass success rate was against Sheff Wed in April where he had a 73% pass success rate.

 

 

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