Bolitics The New Condem Government

[dont_do_it_doug.]

It doesn't help that he's a compete word removed as well. His personality shines through.

[Mantis]

UKIP must have some powerful folk backing them. Their completely disproportionate media coverage wasn't by accident.

 

Well done those who bought into their particular brand of bullshit. You've successfully shifted blame from those who actually created this mess onto people just looking for a better standard of life.

 

There's no conspiracy - it's just a simple case of the media jumping onto a bandwagon.

 

[Awol]

Anyone paying attention would observe that UKIP are attacking the system and policy that allows unrestricted migration from the EU. Farage has explicitly said he would do the same in their position, but some people, like CED, see what they want to see in order to maintain a false narrative.

It's not even a subtle difference.

[HanoiVillan]

Anyone paying attention would observe that UKIP are attacking the system and policy that allows unrestricted migration from the EU. Farage has explicitly said he would do the same in their position, but some people, like CED, see what they want to see in order to maintain a false narrative.

It's not even a subtle difference.

 

Farage has said he would do the same as what, sorry?

[HanoiVillan]

It doesn't help that he's a compete word removed as well. His personality shines through.

 

Yes, he is a complete word removed. At the end of the day, I take UKIP personally. There's no way I can't. I have been together with my Canadian girlfriend for more than 5 years, but even though we want to move to the UK at some point it will be extremely difficult to meet even the current salary requirements (we're both ESL teachers) and if UKIP's proposed immigration rules were to come into force, I would be essentially permanently exiled from the country. As a white, straight, middle-class male, it's a rare experience to be on the receiving end of a politics which blames me and people like me for much of the country's problems, and I don't like it one bit. 

[bickster]

Not seen it posted here yet. http://audioboom.com/boos/2550913-what-do-ukip-stand-for-james-o-brien-s-takedown-of-this-supporter-is-effortless/embed/v3?eid=AQAAAMLTN1SB7CYA&max_height=150px]LBC interviewer takes on an enthusiastic UKIP voter

[Awol]

Anyone paying attention would observe that UKIP are attacking the system and policy that allows unrestricted migration from the EU. Farage has explicitly said he would do the same in their position, but some people, like CED, see what they want to see in order to maintain a false narrative.

It's not even a subtle difference.

Farage has said he would do the same as what, sorry?

That he would take advantage of free movement to come to UK and seek work, if in the position of a young potential migrant in a poorer EU country.

UKIP aren't demonising individuals for wanting to come to UK, they are against the actual principle of free movement within the EU. They are for a controlled immigration system based on an individual's skills and the need for them in the economy.

Essentially it's the same system operated by Australia, Canada and many other countries who don't get described as racist et al for having such a policy.

I don't see anything wrong with the principle of what they are suggesting at all.

[Awol]

It doesn't help that he's a compete word removed as well. His personality shines through.

Yes, he is a complete word removed. At the end of the day, I take UKIP personally. There's no way I can't. I have been together with my Canadian girlfriend for more than 5 years, but even though we want to move to the UK at some point it will be extremely difficult to meet even the current salary requirements (we're both ESL teachers) and if UKIP's proposed immigration rules were to come into force, I would be essentially permanently exiled from the country. As a white, straight, middle-class male, it's a rare experience to be on the receiving end of a politics which blames me and people like me for much of the country's problems, and I don't like it one bit.

Interestingly what they are proposing is the opposite of what you suggest. They want to create a level playing field for immigration that doesn't favour EU migrants (who currently have an open door) over potential migrants from outside the EU.

The reason it is becoming so difficult for non EU migrants to get into UK is because the current government are using the only tool they have to try and bring immigration numbers down (one of the top issues of public concern) precisely because they can do nothing about migration from the EU.

UKIP's policy is actually geared to help people like you!

[MakemineVanilla]

 

It doesn't help that he's a compete word removed as well. His personality shines through.

 

Yes, he is a complete word removed. At the end of the day, I take UKIP personally. There's no way I can't. I have been together with my Canadian girlfriend for more than 5 years, but even though we want to move to the UK at some point it will be extremely difficult to meet even the current salary requirements (we're both ESL teachers) and if UKIP's proposed immigration rules were to come into force, I would be essentially permanently exiled from the country. As a white, straight, middle-class male, it's a rare experience to be on the receiving end of a politics which blames me and people like me for much of the country's problems, and I don't like it one bit. 

 

 

You obviously haven't been listening.

 

Being a white middle-class man you are the personification of the oppressive patriarchy, which perpetuates male privilege in our society, dominates political and economic power, disenfranchises rival groups, while systematically oppressing women, by excluding them from the top jobs, with your chauvinistic prejudices, sexual harassment, and rape culture .

 

Given a sufficient majority it is certain that both Labour and the Lib-Dems, will attempt to introduce legislation in an attempt to reduce your privilege and selfish tyranny.

 

Be assured you definitely will not escape the politics of blame. 

[dont_do_it_doug.]

It doesn't help that he's a compete word removed as well. His personality shines through.

Yes, he is a complete word removed. At the end of the day, I take UKIP personally. There's no way I can't. I have been together with my Canadian girlfriend for more than 5 years, but even though we want to move to the UK at some point it will be extremely difficult to meet even the current salary requirements (we're both ESL teachers) and if UKIP's proposed immigration rules were to come into force, I would be essentially permanently exiled from the country. As a white, straight, middle-class male, it's a rare experience to be on the receiving end of a politics which blames me and people like me for much of the country's problems, and I don't like it one bit.

Interestingly what they are proposing is the opposite of what you suggest. They want to create a level playing field for immigration that doesn't favour EU migrants (who currently have an open door) over potential migrants from outside the EU.

The reason it is becoming so difficult for non EU migrants to get into UK is because the current government are using the only tool they have to try and bring immigration numbers down (one of the top issues of public concern) precisely because they can do nothing about migration from the EU.

UKIP's policy is actually geared to help people like you!

If that is their message then it really, really isn't coming across at all. Which concerns me, because people are not voting for UKIP based on the above perceived bollocks... Sorry I mean policy... The message that is coming across is close the boarders, send the bastards back, and people are lapping it up.

[MakemineVanilla]

 

 

 

It doesn't help that he's a compete word removed as well. His personality shines through.

Yes, he is a complete word removed. At the end of the day, I take UKIP personally. There's no way I can't. I have been together with my Canadian girlfriend for more than 5 years, but even though we want to move to the UK at some point it will be extremely difficult to meet even the current salary requirements (we're both ESL teachers) and if UKIP's proposed immigration rules were to come into force, I would be essentially permanently exiled from the country. As a white, straight, middle-class male, it's a rare experience to be on the receiving end of a politics which blames me and people like me for much of the country's problems, and I don't like it one bit.

Interestingly what they are proposing is the opposite of what you suggest. They want to create a level playing field for immigration that doesn't favour EU migrants (who currently have an open door) over potential migrants from outside the EU.

The reason it is becoming so difficult for non EU migrants to get into UK is because the current government are using the only tool they have to try and bring immigration numbers down (one of the top issues of public concern) precisely because they can do nothing about migration from the EU.

UKIP's policy is actually geared to help people like you!

If that is their message then it really, really isn't coming across at all. Which concerns me, because people are not voting for UKIP based on the above perceived bollocks... Sorry I mean policy... The message that is coming across is close the boarders, send the bastards back, and people are lapping it up.

 

 

I have definitely heard at least one UKIP spokesperson say they would introduce an 'Australian-type' points system.

 

But it has to be said that the liberal media do tend to conflate selection with racism for their own purposes.

Edited October 12, 2014 by MakemineVanilla

[Awol]

It doesn't help that he's a compete word removed as well. His personality shines through.

Yes, he is a complete word removed. At the end of the day, I take UKIP personally. There's no way I can't. I have been together with my Canadian girlfriend for more than 5 years, but even though we want to move to the UK at some point it will be extremely difficult to meet even the current salary requirements (we're both ESL teachers) and if UKIP's proposed immigration rules were to come into force, I would be essentially permanently exiled from the country. As a white, straight, middle-class male, it's a rare experience to be on the receiving end of a politics which blames me and people like me for much of the country's problems, and I don't like it one bit.

Interestingly what they are proposing is the opposite of what you suggest. They want to create a level playing field for immigration that doesn't favour EU migrants (who currently have an open door) over potential migrants from outside the EU.

The reason it is becoming so difficult for non EU migrants to get into UK is because the current government are using the only tool they have to try and bring immigration numbers down (one of the top issues of public concern) precisely because they can do nothing about migration from the EU.

UKIP's policy is actually geared to help people like you!

If that is their message then it really, really isn't coming across at all. Which concerns me, because people are not voting for UKIP based on the above perceived bollocks... Sorry I mean policy... The message that is coming across is close the boarders, send the bastards back, and people are lapping it up.

They have been explicitly clear that their policy approach is what I wrote and have you quoted above, as MMV says it suits those with a different agenda to parody that as "send the buggers back" etc, but that isn't what UKIP are proposing at all.

Farage has also been clear that for those people who are already resident in UK there is no question of deporting or removing people to their country of origin - unless they commit a serious crime. That is in line with the approach taken by most of the free world outside of the EU nations.

If that is perceived as being racist or b*llocks then it's in the face of the evidence to the contrary.

Edited October 12, 2014 by Awol

[CarewsEyebrowDesigner]

I have a hard time believing that this current 'debate' about immigration has more to do with economic concerns than, as Maggie put it, ''people [being] really rather afraid that this country might be rather swamped by people with a different culture."

[Mantis]

I have a hard time believing that this current 'debate' about immigration has more to do with economic concerns than, as Maggie put it, ''people [being] really rather afraid that this country might be rather swamped by people with a different culture."

Why? I'm not saying that isn't the case for some people, but I've seen nothing to suggest that economic concerns (founded or unfounded) don't play a big part.

[Awol]

I have a hard time believing that this current 'debate' about immigration has more to do with economic concerns than, as Maggie put it, ''people [being] really rather afraid that this country might be rather swamped by people with a different culture."

I think both are a factor, but possibly the biggest issue is that local authorities have no way of planning what amount of basic services like health, education and housing are required, if they have no clue what the population size in their area will be in 24-36 months. Until the borders are under control and immigration is once again a managed process no one will be able to get a grip over service provision, leading to a worsening situation for all.

Meanwhile the main parties are happy to keep bringing in net 250,000 people a year because it provides cheap labour and ensures a downward pressure on wages. That's great for their pals in big business but not so much if you are an unskilled or semi skilled local national looking for work.

[snowychap]

...ensures a downward pressure on wages.

So goes the narrative of UKIP (and others).

The analysis (as per Portes, for example) may not quite support this (at least to the extent that the anti-immigration line takes and in the long run rather than short run).

I think you're on firmer ground with the service provision angle.

[CarewsEyebrowDesigner]

Well, most of the economic concerns people raise (low wages, unemployment, welfare etc) are not the result of immigration, but are the result of 30 odd years of neo-liberal policies i.e. if there was far less immigration during that period, we would still have those problems. For example, 'market forces' led to the decline in manufacturing in the UK and the subsequent problems within working class communities. For that reason, I don't buy the usual lines trotted out by UKIP voters. I can understand their disillusionment with the system, especially among working class (usually Labour) voters, but they are focusing their anger on the wrong area, and IMO they have been led to do so quite shamelessly by politicians & the media.

[bickster]

Is this the same immigration policy that Herr Farrago was saying in January would be a 5 year blanket ban on immigration? Doesn't sound the same to me. How should we know what is current UKIP policy? It seems to change by the pint

[MakemineVanilla]

 

...ensures a downward pressure on wages.

So goes the narrative of UKIP (and others).

The analysis (as per Portes, for example) may not quite support this (at least to the extent that the anti-immigration line takes and in the long run rather than short run).

I think you're on firmer ground with the service provision angle.

 

 

The trouble is that Jonathan Portes was part of the team which advised on Labour's immigration policy; his genius was dispensed with in 2008.

 

He claims that immigrants actually raise wages but doesn't bother to explain how or for whom. 

 

I can't think of another commodity where an increase in supply increased the price.

 

I can't help but think that his opinions are tainted by his political alignment.

Edited October 12, 2014 by MakemineVanilla

[snowychap]

The trouble is that Jonathan Portes was part of the team which advised on Labour's immigration policy; his genius was dispensed with in 2008.

He claims that immigrants actually raise wages but doesn't bother to explain how or for whom. 

 

I can't think of another commodity where an increase in supply increased the price.

 

I can't help but think that his opinions are tainted by his political alignment.

  

I think there's a great deal of difference between being a (senior) civil service advisor on matters and being what you attempt to imply above (i.e. that he was a political advisor).

If so, he would also need to be a political advisor to a Tory chancellor and much more which would rather hole your 'political alignment' dismissal.

Does he not bother to explain how and for whom? When I've got time later, I'll go and have a look at any of the NIESR papers and see whether your accusation holds water or is just an unsupported claim.

On the supply and demand bit, there are a couple (or more) of points, aren't there (these are mine off the top of my head on a Sunday morning when I should really be getting ready to go out )?

Firstly, that the increase in supply may well have an adverse affect upon employment (though that may well depend on the economic circumstances, may only be in the short term and may not be as great as automatically assumed); secondly, it's not a case of keeping all other things equal - an increase in labour supply (especially of a particular kind) may well have a beneficial effect on the economy such that any potentially adverse effects on employment and/or wages is lower than it may otherwise be; thirdly, not all workers are substitutes for each other.

On the simple matter of wages, couldn't the argument be that the minimum wage has reduced the possibilities for the negative effects of that immigration and that there are many more things that have affected wages (and wage growth) over and above immigration?

Edited October 12, 2014 by snowychap