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13 minutes ago, OutByEaster? said:

You're probably right, but even in these conditions, Sibley's last five innings have only gathered a total of fifteen runs - there should surely be questions about him on that basis?

He's averaged less than seven in his last seven innings.

 

Absolutely, his ability against spin is a massive concern. I just don’t think that really has any bearing when considering the side for the home tests, or Australia. I do worry about Burns against the short ball in the winter.

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7 minutes ago, bannedfromHandV said:

Back to the drawing board, again.

Going to India is super tough, that’s a given, but we’ve been dismissed here like a second rate test side in the past 2-3 games.

I hope this is the last time we see Bairstow in the test team, he’s had plenty of opportunities, Sibley is not international standard and if we didn’t already know it our spin bowlers are average at best.

I just think reactions like this completely ignore how rare it is for teams to win away from home in test cricket, particularly in ‘alien’ conditions. Not saying we’ve not been humiliated but it’s literally been going on for decades so it can’t be a surprise. 
 

Root had won 6 tests away in a row after the 1st test, India were never going to produce a pitch like that after we won that game convincingly.


It really isn’t back to the drawing board with regards the home tests, Woakes will play and be great, same for Broad and Anderson. Leach has had a really good winter, Bess is the one who is clearly out of his depth. His five for in Sri Lanka was one of the worst/luckiest you’ll ever see.

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That's a fair post. Our batters in most conditions are fine. But the skills gap to spin does seem larger than it has ever been even allowing for that.

Still Bairstow is the only one who can clearly piss off. Burns to come back, albeit his form last year wasn't great either so I think longer term questions on his place are valid. 

Most importantly protecting the confidence of the likes of Pope after this is going to be important. 

Also it's been nice to see Dan Lawrence fare better down the order. Asking him to bat at 3 beforehand was very cruel. Hopefully for his sake he can personally show some form with a tidy score, Foakes too knowing he'll be dispensed with regardless after this, hope he can end with a few runs.

 

 

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3 minutes ago, mole86 said:

I just think reactions like this completely ignore how rare it is for teams to win away from home in test cricket, particularly in ‘alien’ conditions. Not saying we’ve not been humiliated but it’s literally been going on for decades so it can’t be a surprise. 
 

Root had won 6 tests away in a row after the 1st test, India were never going to produce a pitch like that after we won that game convincingly.


It really isn’t back to the drawing board with regards the home tests, Woakes will play and be great, same for Broad and Anderson. Leach has had a really good winter, Bess is the one who is clearly out of his depth. His five for in Sri Lanka was one of the worst/luckiest you’ll ever see.

The only way you can be the best is to be good away from home, winning a series at home is expected 8/9 times out of 10. Building a team that can be competitive in the sub-continent and Australia should always be the aim, and we’ve been far from competitive these past few matches.

I’m not asking for a series win, I’m just asking to not be made to look like Zimbabwe.

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3 minutes ago, Rodders said:

That's a fair post. Our batters in most conditions are fine. But the skills gap to spin does seem larger than it has ever been even allowing for that.

Still Bairstow is the only one who can clearly piss off. Burns to come back, albeit his form last year wasn't great either so I think longer term questions on his place are valid. 

Most importantly protecting the confidence of the likes of Pope after this is going to be important. 

Also it's been nice to see Dan Lawrence fare better down the order. Asking him to bat at 3 beforehand was very cruel. Hopefully for his sake he can personally show some form with a tidy score, Foakes too knowing he'll be dispensed with regardless after this, hope he can end with a few runs.

 

 

Pope’s been the biggest disappointment for me the last few weeks, he’s obviously not coming in at ideal times of the innings but he has been all over the place

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If Foakes and Lawrence accidentally bat us into a tiny lead here, I'm not sure the rest of the team will be too delighted about having to get back out into the field, even if it is only for five minutes.

 

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1 hour ago, bannedfromHandV said:

Bess tried his best to get out then, blatantly did not want to be out there.

His head as gone hasnt it. Its not easy being Englands spinner, unlike the seamers who just rotate. Moeen took nearly 200 wickets but got burnt  out because it seemed like the pressure was always on him. Leach has come back and done well. The seamers have it easy. 

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1 hour ago, PaulC said:

His head as gone hasnt it. Its not easy being Englands spinner, unlike the seamers who just rotate. Moeen took nearly 200 wickets but got burnt  out because it seemed like the pressure was always on him. Leach has come back and done well. The seamers have it easy. 

Yeah, his head's gone. He kind of had a lucky streak which ran out, I think. When he got all those wickets in SA and SL he bowled a lot of bad balls, and now he's up against better players fo spin, they've hammered the bad balls and his head dropped, and the threat he posed from having confidence had vanished.

I don't think the seamers have it easy at all, though. I think we're lucky that we have a bunch of exceedingly good seam bowlers - Anderson and Broad are amongst the best there have ever been in World cricket. Absolute masters. Archer, Woakes (who hasn't played a single game on tour, despite all that time in the bubble) Olly Stone, Stokes - these are all real quality bowlers. The spinners - there's just not the depth to pick from, so we end up, if we're lucky with one whose OK, unless someone like Graeme Swann turns up once in a while. But anyway the seamers have been bowling in hugely unhelpful conditions and worked their socks off - drying up runs, taking some wickets in the heat and dust. Not easy at all.

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2 minutes ago, blandy said:

Yeah, his head's gone. He kind of had a lucky streak which ran out, I think. When he got all those wickets in SA and SL he bowled a lot of bad balls, and now he's up against better players fo spin, they've hammered the bad balls and his head dropped, and the threat he posed from having confidence had vanished.

I don't think the seamers have it easy at all, though. I think we're lucky that we have a bunch of exceedingly good seam bowlers - Anderson and Broad are amongst the best there have ever been in World cricket. Absolute masters. Archer, Woakes (who hasn't played a single game on tour, despite all that time in the bubble) Olly Stone, Stokes - these are all real quality bowlers. The spinners - there's just not the depth to pick from, so we end up, if we're lucky with one whose OK, unless someone like Graeme Swann turns up once in a while. But anyway the seamers have been bowling in hugely unhelpful conditions and worked their socks off - drying up runs, taking some wickets in the heat and dust. Not easy at all.

Yes thats what I mean we have an array of quality seamers so its easier for them, less pressure. We normally pick one spinner and the pressure is on them to do the holding role as well as get wickets in the 2nd innings.  if one seamer has a bad day theres three others. 

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1 minute ago, PaulC said:

if one seamer has a bad day theres three others

Not in this test. Anderson and Stokes. Leach, Bess, Root - 3 spinners.

In the UK, you're right, but generally the pressure isn't on the spinners over here. Maybe on the last day if the weathers hot at the Oval or somewhere. The other thing is that English spinners rarely encounter pitches like we've had in SL and India, so they almost never get any time bowling on them, to how technique and stuff. Swann bowled at Northampton which was spin friendly and Leach and Bess at Somerset (ditto), but these days the County championship takes place in spring and Autumn when the pitches and overheads are more favourable to seam - at least Swann (and Monty) got to bowl in the height of summer on spinning pitches, though never like the Indian minefields.

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22 minutes ago, blandy said:

Not in this test. Anderson and Stokes. Leach, Bess, Root - 3 spinners.

In the UK, you're right, but generally the pressure isn't on the spinners over here. Maybe on the last day if the weathers hot at the Oval or somewhere. The other thing is that English spinners rarely encounter pitches like we've had in SL and India, so they almost never get any time bowling on them, to how technique and stuff. Swann bowled at Northampton which was spin friendly and Leach and Bess at Somerset (ditto), but these days the County championship takes place in spring and Autumn when the pitches and overheads are more favourable to seam - at least Swann (and Monty) got to bowl in the height of summer on spinning pitches, though never like the Indian minefields.

Yes I am talking overall. I think theres been huge pressure on the spinners since Swann retired.  it eventually got to Moeen Ali

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1 hour ago, PaulC said:

Yes thats what I mean we have an array of quality seamers so its easier for them, less pressure. We normally pick one spinner and the pressure is on them to do the holding role as well as get wickets in the 2nd innings.  if one seamer has a bad day theres three others. 

They also are expected to be one of the best batsmen among the bowlers too and is a big part of why they've invested so much time in Bess.  Amar Virdi is the most talented spinner I've seen in recent years, especially when it comes to actually spinning the ball but he isn't going to play when he has a batting average like Monty, even though our batting line up had Foakes at number 8 in this match.  He was a reserve on this tour but didn't even get a bowl in the inter-squad warm up.  I like Leach though, hopefully he stays fit and well from now on.

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29 minutes ago, sharkyvilla said:

They also are expected to be one of the best batsmen among the bowlers too and is a big part of why they've invested so much time in Bess.  Amar Virdi is the most talented spinner I've seen in recent years, especially when it comes to actually spinning the ball but he isn't going to play when he has a batting average like Monty, even though our batting line up had Foakes at number 8 in this match.  He was a reserve on this tour but didn't even get a bowl in the inter-squad warm up.  I like Leach though, hopefully he stays fit and well from now on.

I know hes hung around but Leach cant bat. first class average of 11. So if Virdi is that good he should get in. 

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