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I think he looks the best England prospect in years. Better than Broad.

Better than Woakes do you think ? Dont forget Chris Woakes can bat a bit too. No bias from me of course :)

Ha ha. To be honest, I've not seen anything of Woakes so it would be wrong to comment. I wouldn't be too concerned with how they can bat when we're talking about bowlers. It's always nice if they can get some runs but it's about taking wickets as that's what they're there to do.

What's he (Woakes) like in terms of pace?

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Woakes is slower than Broad and Finn. He's a very good prospect, but he's a year or two behind Finn in terms of development. I'd say Woakes is around about the same pace as Mohammed Asif was bowling in this test.

Woakes is pretty accurate and moves the ball. He'll maybe get a bit quicker too.

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A peak Gusty Fraser was superb!

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.

What's he (Woakes) like in terms of pace?

Yep, blandy summed it up perfectly.

You are undoubtably right about quick bowlers there to take wickets not get runs and I guess you could extend the same argument to 'keepers being there to keep wicket not get runs. It's just when you are as old as me :oops: you remember the likes of John Snow and (a bit later) Graham Dilley, for example, pitching in with useful runs.

ps Although it goes against the grain to say it, the great Denis Lilley got runs too didnt he ?

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What's he (Woakes) like in terms of pace?

Yep, blandy summed it up perfectly.

You are undoubtably right about quick bowlers there to take wickets not get runs and I guess you could extend the same argument to 'keepers being there to keep wicket not get runs. It's just when you are as old as me :oops: you remember the likes of John Snow and (a bit later) Graham Dilley, for example, pitching in with useful runs.

ps Although it goes against the grain to say it, the great Denis Lilley got runs too didnt he ?

No probs with them chipping in and getting runs but I think the measure of them ought to be wicket taking and ability with the bat should only be looked at as a tiebreak.

I think 'keepers who can bat add more balance to the side but I'd also agree that they are there to keep wicket and often bad 'keeping can outweigh the runs contributed by a batsman 'keeper.

p.s. Yeah, three or four with that Aluminium bat, too. :P

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We'll see. To be fair you didn't quote the bit where I said he would improve to be decent enough IMO. I think it is just lacking experience at the moment which he might learn in this series.

We'll see if he fulfills that promise, yes.

The reason I didn't quote the rest was because I wasn't explicitly criticizing your opinion but just wishing to express mine.

I think the experience point is very valid as he's only played something like 40 first class games, I think. I reckon he could be a real handful on some of the Aussie pitches but, in general, I'd go along with Gringo's post and say he could be a Fraser type (or upgrade but that would be really good).

Yep fair enough. I hope he does improve and I actually think he will. He needs to be playing as well. I didn't agree with that strength training rest program he was put on. By all means give the lad a rest as too much too early will put pressure on him, much like Aamer. Problem is I think he also needs to be bowling.

Problem Pakistan have with Aamer is he is their most effective bowler at the top, at the moment.

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Mohammad Yousuf has been called up for the rest of the England tour,

it should add some strength and experience to their middle order...

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Kaneria dropped as well. Released back to Essex who might not even play him anyway.

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Kaneria dropped as well. Released back to Essex who might not even play him anyway.

With the injuries we have and his natural ability I doubt that very highly. Remember he is still a test match bowler, just not on good form atm, which is

a step up from first class cricket. Also remember that Essex like to play at least 1 spinner an dour other one is Tim Phillips who is useless.

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[

p.s. Yeah, three or four with that Aluminium bat, too. :P

Oh yeah - that was classic. Almost as good as when Miandad decided to have a go at him.

Miandad armed with bat - Lilley just fists . Hmm still weighted towards the great Denis :D (

my favourite fast bowler !

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Kaneria dropped as well. Released back to Essex who might not even play him anyway.

With the injuries we have and his natural ability I doubt that very highly. Remember he is still a test match bowler, just not on good form atm, which is

a step up from first class cricket. Also remember that Essex like to play at least 1 spinner an dour other one is Tim Phillips who is useless.

Something I read earlier. Not the fact he isn't good enough as he clearly is, just about a settled line up or something? Might well play then.

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Woakes is slower than Broad and Finn. He's a very good prospect, but he's a year or two behind Finn in terms of development. I'd say Woakes is around about the same pace as Mohammed Asif was bowling in this test.

Woakes is pretty accurate and moves the ball. He'll maybe get a bit quicker too.

played in a charity match with woakes, it's amazing how rapid they actually are and he wasn't even trying I don't think, ran off a few short paces and woosh!

ridiculous.

obviously at the higher level though it's rather more common place.

Woakes has posted some good figures this season, but does receive some tap as well.

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Woakes is slower than Broad and Finn. He's a very good prospect, but he's a year or two behind Finn in terms of development. I'd say Woakes is around about the same pace as Mohammed Asif was bowling in this test.

Woakes is pretty accurate and moves the ball. He'll maybe get a bit quicker too.

England seem to like tall fast bowlers, and they seem to be a bit more 'careful' with their development nowadays - seem to remember Chris Tremlett being the "next big thing", only for him to fall by the wayside for one reason or another -did Tremlett get a bad back injury or something?

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Woakes isn't really quick enough, Bumble was saying on commentary the other day that he needs to put on a yard or so of pace to be able to be a regular threat at the top level, rocking in and bowling at 80mph isn't really quick enough unless you are hooping it around corners.

Nathan Buck can't be too far from getting chucked in for a one day game.

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I'd say Woakes is well ahead of Buck. Buck is very inconsistent, Woakes - whilst I admit he needs a little more pace - has been bowling well for quite a while now. He's accurate and can swing a ball quite well. He also bowls a fantastic yorker, something which will a useful weapon in one day games and Twenty20's.

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How often have you seen Buck bowl? Not saying Buck will necessarily get chucked in ahead of Woakes, moreso that the lad has outbowled Hoggard regularly at the age of 19 and operates in the mid 80s. England seem to like to bring through players from U19 level and Buck has been the main man in the bowling department so I wouldn't be suprised to see him get some recognition in the next 18 months or so.

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Next test is tomorrow. England are unchanged and Pakistan have made two, Saeed Ajmal for Kaneria and Zulqarnain Haider for Kamran Akmal.

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Same sort of one as for the previous test, where they also collapsed? :winkold:

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ground's fine, it's the batsman who aren't. Can't even use the review system properly. Could be simply 37-4 if they'd paid attention.

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