');
veloman

Cricket: General Chat

Recommended Posts

**** hell. Just woken up to the exact alerts on my phone that I feared. Sounds like another gutless England collapse. All too predictable. There’s a real arrogance running through that team. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well done England. Another cowardly collapse. 

5-0 to the Aussies (again) I reckon. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It’s absolutely gutting that, after several years of waiting, that the Ashes is effectively over. It’s pretty much done as a contest, anyway. There’s no coming back from this. 

Credit to the Aussie bowlers but I think this England team needs a huge kick up the arse in order to change the mentality, whether it be arrogance, fragility, whatever. To collapse so regularly is not right. The amount of guys who throw their wickets away innings after innings is insane. They need to be held to account. We need a character like Eddie Jones to come in and doing something similar to what he’s done with our rugby team - that is, take no shit and demand excellence. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, JB said:

another gutless England collapse

 

1 hour ago, Xela said:

Another cowardly collapse. 

Each to their own and that, but I think that's incredibly harsh. I don't think there was any lack of guts or any cowardice. There really wasn't IMO. I'm not saying everything's rosy - , it isn't, but it's not lack of bottle. Teams almost never win away from home these days. Conditions favour the home sides so much. England could and should do better, for sure. It's the accusation of cowardice or lack of guts that I find I don't agree with. They fought hard, but were beaten by a team with bowlers better suited and more familiar with the conditions, playing at home. I really hoped they'd pull something special out of the bag, and they didn't. But they tried. Some are short of the talent necessary, some are out of form (Cook, for example) but they had heart. It happens.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Fair points. But it’s cumulative. They’ve consistently shown a fondness for a good old collapse. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, JB said:

Fair points. But it’s cumulative. They’ve consistently shown a fondness for a good old collapse. 

I'm 44 years old and I don't recall a single England cricket team in my lifetime that hasn't consistently shown a fondness for a good old collapse!

Blandy's right, home advantage is so strong these days that it's always an unphill struggle for the touring team. That said, the Aussie's got comprehensively beaten at home this time last year by SA... but the current team seems to be in much better shape. Still weak by Aussie standards though, and I'd be surprised if we don't grab a win in Sydney or Melbourne. 

One thing for sure, we're missing Stokes every bit as much as we thought we would.

 

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 minutes ago, JB said:

They’ve consistently shown a fondness for a good old collapse

Yes, they have. It's almost the nature of the game these days. It's the essence of T20/ one day cricket having affected test cricket. Where the majority of cricket the players play is focussed on getting a high score, take chances, get the runs, lose a wicket keep playing the same way - then that approach becomes ingrained. All out attack and little focus on defence and digging in. The mentality to just grit it out is mostly absent in modern test cricket. It still occasionally happens, but largely it's gone. It's the nature of the game now. It's not mental, or weak - it's a consequence of the way the one day game dominates, really. Crash bang wallop.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
23 hours ago, villa89 said:

Root is the key wicket. If the Ozzies get him England will fold like a pack of cards, if he stays N.O. then they have a big chance.

Didn't need to be nostradamus to predict this...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
50 minutes ago, blandy said:

Yes, they have. It's almost the nature of the game these days. It's the essence of T20/ one day cricket having affected test cricket. Where the majority of cricket the players play is focussed on getting a high score, take chances, get the runs, lose a wicket keep playing the same way - then that approach becomes ingrained. All out attack and little focus on defence and digging in. The mentality to just grit it out is mostly absent in modern test cricket. It still occasionally happens, but largely it's gone. It's the nature of the game now. It's not mental, or weak - it's a consequence of the way the one day game dominates, really. Crash bang wallop.

Yes there are a number of factors

  • Home Advantage , with touring teams largely undercooked by the time the first test arrives and little or no time between tests these days
  • Our top order batting has been an issue for years and now without Ben Stokes we are far more vunerable to collapse. Now Cook is  major problem too. 
  • Their bowlers are on average 4 or 5mph faster than ours. and lets be honest Starc is probably the best there is now. 
  • The advent of t20 has brought about the demise of  championship cricket.  Its not played in the middle of summer for a start anymore. We're not producing fast bowlers or spinners 

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, blandy said:

They fought hard, but were beaten by a team with bowlers better suited and more familiar with the conditions, playing at home. I really hoped they'd pull something special out of the bag, and they didn't. But they tried. Some are short of the talent necessary, some are out of form (Cook, for example) but they had heart. It happens.

6 wickets for 60 runs this morning.

95% of us knew exactly what would happen. They dug in yesterday, and did well, is it too much to expect the same today? 

Save for the 3-1 win a few years ago in Oz (wonderful performance which I remember watching fondly in the Aussie Bar in Bangkok) our performances over there are getting worse. That win, which was the exception to the rule has been sandwiched by two 5-0 defeats. I know the home team in favourite but at least the Aussies generally make a better fist of it in the UK. Its always competitive. Our sojourns in Australia are becoming more embarrassing by the game.

I seem to recall Root is awful at adding to overnight scores - he is seemingly always out cheaply when he is not out overnight. There seems to be a mental weakness in the team. When things are going well we are great, but when there is a challenge then we crumble like a pack of cards. 

Maybe i'm being too harsh but there seems to be a lack of fight in the team. 

Moan over! :) I hope I'm proved wrong and we bounce back in the 3rd test but i think most of us already know we are heading for a whitewash, again. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
35 minutes ago, Xela said:

6 wickets for 60 runs this morning.

95% of us knew exactly what would happen. They dug in yesterday, and did well, is it too much to expect the same today? 

Save for the 3-1 win a few years ago in Oz (wonderful performance which I remember watching fondly in the Aussie Bar in Bangkok) our performances over there are getting worse. That win, which was the exception to the rule has been sandwiched by two 5-0 defeats. I know the home team in favourite but at least the Aussies generally make a better fist of it in the UK. Its always competitive. Our sojourns in Australia are becoming more embarrassing by the game.

I seem to recall Root is awful at adding to overnight scores - he is seemingly always out cheaply when he is not out overnight. There seems to be a mental weakness in the team. When things are going well we are great, but when there is a challenge then we crumble like a pack of cards. 

Maybe i'm being too harsh but there seems to be a lack of fight in the team. 

Moan over! :) I hope I'm proved wrong and we bounce back in the 3rd test but i think most of us already know we are heading for a whitewash, again. 

I get where you're coming from, but I just see it differently. I watched (through my fingers) the game on the telly today and then went to the pub. But there was no lack of fight. Both Woakes and Root got slight nicks on good balls, right early on. That can happen. The rest did their best, but were basically fighting a lost cause, and maybe that didn't help..?

I was in Adelaide 4 years ago for the Ashes then, and we were totally blown away - worse than this time. I don't think we're getting worse, but I do agree the team is sort of middle of the road - it's not a great team, and barely a good one. The Aussies are also not a great team, but are a good one on their own patch. I don't go with all this mentally weak stuff, or lack of fight. They're just a team with about 6 or 7 good players and maybe 4 who are not really test class/are out of form, playing away in harsh conditions.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I agree with much of what you say but there’s a definite mental fragility and arrogance to that team. The regular self-destruction, lack of discipline and throwing away of wickets through inexplicable stroke play are issues that have needed addressing for ages. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
28 minutes ago, JB said:

The regular self-destruction, lack of discipline and throwing away of wickets through inexplicable stroke play are issues that have needed addressing for ages. 

There's far too much BS about "playing your natural game" or "we want to play attacking cricket" floating around the England team. You play the game based on the conditions and the scenario you are in. If that means standing there blocking for 5 hours and not scoring a run then that's what you have to do. Far too many English batsmen walk out to the middle, play the way they feel like playing and give their wicket away needlessly. 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
40 minutes ago, villa89 said:

There's far too much BS about "playing your natural game" or "we want to play attacking cricket" floating around the England team. You play the game based on the conditions and the scenario you are in. If that means standing there blocking for 5 hours and not scoring a run then that's what you have to do. Far too many English batsmen walk out to the middle, play the way they feel like playing and give their wicket away needlessly. 

I'm not massively sure I agree with this although I'd agree it's been an issue in the past. The run rates in the series so far don't really show a team that is looking purely to attack. Players like Stoneman and Malan have really dug in at times during the series. Cook's natural game isn't to have a swing at things.

I think the real issue with some of England's batsmen is just a lack of ability/technique when trying to dig in. Players like Vince and Ali aren't technically good enough to "block for 5 hours". I think the number of batsmen giving away wickets has been relatively low compared to many recent test matches.

Some excellent Australian bowling has accounted for the majority of the wickets with Lyon and Cummins being particularly impressive.

We're seeing two pretty evenly matched teams playing in conditions which completely suit Australia. There's no coincidence that when the conditions favoured England Australia were skittled for 140. A series in England has an entirely different result for me and to be honest the home advantage in test series is so great that one sided series are now becoming a bit of an issue in my opinion.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think Villa89 is right, there have been far too many occasions when the England batsmen have got out playing shots that didn't need to be played.  Sometimes you just get a great piece of bowling, where the pace and/or movement is too much to deal with, and when that happens, fair enough.  But we've seen far too many wickets where people have wafted at shots that should have been left, as there just doesn't seem to be the ability of the current squad to learn from their mistakes.  It's almost certainly going to be another 5-0, as we just don't have enough runs in the top order, and not enough speed or variation in the bowling.  

I love test match cricket as at its best it can be just about the most absorbing, nail-biting sport there is to watch, and the 2005 Edgbaston test will live long in the memory, but at the moment with home advantage it's like watching a game of football played on a pitch that is sloping downwards 45%, it's so one-sided and uneven.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, snowychap said:

Perth game is next Thursday, isn't it?

Yep. I think i must have focused on the day 5 date and disengaged my brain. Still a full week of sleep! 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Risso said:

I think Villa89 is right, there have been far too many occasions when the England batsmen have got out playing shots that didn't need to be played.  Sometimes you just get a great piece of bowling, where the pace and/or movement is too much to deal with, and when that happens, fair enough.  But we've seen far too many wickets where people have wafted at shots that should have been left, as there just doesn't seem to be the ability of the current squad to learn from their mistakes.  It's almost certainly going to be another 5-0, as we just don't have enough runs in the top order, and not enough speed or variation in the bowling.  

I love test match cricket as at its best it can be just about the most absorbing, nail-biting sport there is to watch, and the 2005 Edgbaston test will live long in the memory, but at the moment with home advantage it's like watching a game of football played on a pitch that is sloping downwards 45%, it's so one-sided and uneven.

What is frustrating at the moment here is that we have shown in patches we ought not to fear them. Respect their talents sure, and see off the intense bowling, which should be Test Cricket 101. We did apply ourselves for a day with bat and ball. Whilst it quite possibly will be 5 0, if we can start a test on day 1 with the attitude we had of day 4 here it sets a tone early on. 

We CAN. Not expecting too much right now though.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As we won't be bowling at night again, I can't see us getting much swing, and therefore we'll be back to them racking up 400+ innings while we average closer to 200.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites