Bollitics: VT General Election Poll #4 - Leaders Debate one

[drat01]

It seems Cameron was telling a few porkies in his anecdotes last night. Here is a few facts about the Lexus reference

Cameron’s Lexus takes a wrong turn?

Author: FactCheck with Cathy Newman|Posted: 3:39 pm on 16/04/10

Category: Conservatives, Crime, David Cameron | Tags: Crime/ David Cameron/ Hull/ Humberside Police Force/ Lexus

I went to a Hull police station the other day. They had five different police cars, and they were just about to buy a £73,000 Lexus.

David Cameron, Leaders debate, 15 April 2010

Cathy Newman checks it out

Politicians like to have a go at the police for spending too much time behind a desk and not enough time pounding the streets. But last night, PC Plod got it in the neck over his choice of wheels.

During last night’s TV debate, David Cameron suggested the fancy Lexus purchased by the police in Hull was a striking example of public sector waste. But was it anything of the sort?

The FactCheck team tuned in last night, and throughout the day we’ll be bringing you our findings.

The analysis

Humberside police force don’t deny that they’ve purchased a Lexus IS-F but they certainly haven’t made any secret of the fact that they bought it almost a year ago – in July to be precise.

Lexus were so proud that their vehicle was chosen after 12 months of testing that they put out a press release. According to the Sergeant Mike Peck the vehicle was “tested during a 12 month period along with similar vehicles and proved itself to be ideally suited” to operate as part of a Roads Crime Section team.

The police told FactCheck today that they use this high performance vehicle as a “grand command vehicle” which leads a fleet as part of the fight against serious organised crime.

But did they pay £73,000 for it? Er, no. Lexus confirmed that the on-the-road price of a Lexus IS-F was £53,381 last July but, they said, the police would not have paid that price but something closer to £50,000. The police wouldn’t confirm the exact price but also said they paid less than the list price.

To be fair, the car in question carries £30,000 worth of on-board computers and communications equipment so once the police purchased it they souped it up somewhat.

Both the police and Lexus told us there are no plans to buy another vehicle at the moment.

What’s more, FactCheck can find no record of Cameron visiting Hull since August last year. So when he said “I went to a Hull police station the other day” what FactCheck thinks he really meant to say was “I was in a Hull police station on August the 18th last year”

Today a Conservative spokesman told FactCheck: “David Cameron visited a Hull police station and was told that the local police force were on the point of buying a £73,000 Lexus.

“He did not seek to single out Humberside Police for criticism, but to make a broader point about the need for value for money in all police procurement.

“If Hull police in fact managed to purchase their Lexus for a smaller sum then they are to be congratulated. The Lexus came up in conversation and David Cameron was not made aware of the final purchase price.”

The verdict

The Lexus mantra is “the pursuit of perfection”, but David Cameron’s mastery of the facts on this occasion was less than perfect. He wasn’t in a Hull police station “the other day”, but eight months ago.

The police aren’t about to buy a Lexus – they already have one. And it didn’t cost anywhere near £73,000, but closer to £50,000.

A fleet of other TV debate FactChecks are on the production line – watch this space

Cameron, Hull Police and Lexus

[CarewsEyebrowDesigner]

I tend to trust women when it comes to analysing best at how people come across.

Not one woman I spoke too though Cameron came across well, and Brown didn't fare much better.

Clegg will run away with the young womans vote imo, which is Massive.

[snowychap]

cameron isnt allowed to say "black man"? FFS

I just wondered why he had to point out that he had spoken to a black man?

maybe becuase he was ?

I don't think that explains why he felt that he had to point out the colour of the man (unless, of course, he thought it was a good idea to show that he won't baulk when it comes to, y'know, talking to black people).

Did he mention the colour of any of the other people to whom he had spoken?

Edit: And just for clarification after my later post, I don't think Cameron is a racist. I think this was just a clumsy thing to say as a result, probably, of foolish advice.

[tonyh29]

If you can't see that or must defend Cameron

it's not a case of must defend it's a case of who can say .... now it may have been a gaffe only Cameron will really know for sure .. And that is all i'm saying , rather than let jump on the lets bash Cameron bandwagon why doesn't anyone think for themselves

For example

Tridents intended use was to " discourage aggression against the UK" so like I say what threat does North Korea currently pose to us in that regard that China doesn't ...

and that is the point that the Cameron haters don't seem to want to discuss .. Jon , despite being no fan of Cameron , did at least did try to answer the poster who decided outright that Cameron had lost it on the basis of last night ...

This is a forum , I'm sure it would be great if we all just sat here and said Yes I agree with everything you say ..but it would also be a tad boring

I'm not saying I am right , I'm not saying you are wrong ..i'm just trying to get people to consider all sides

All we've really seen here is 11 pages of Clegg was wonderful ,it would be nice if we actually discussed his policies and why they are wonderful .. the £17bn the talk about for example , great vote winner but doesn't appear to be even remotely possible .. this immigration to certain areas only policy .. I hear it works in Australia , fair enough but will it work in the UK ?

[mjmooney]

All we've really seen here is 11 pages of Clegg was wonderful ,it would be nice if we actually discussed his policies and why they are wonderful.

But that was my point upthread. The very existence of this debating program - and the popular response to it - points out the irrelevance of policies.

The election could well be decided by something as shallow as what CED astutely spotted as the "young womens' vote", voting on how "nicely" they come across in these debates.

I don't like it any more than you do, but we've now entered a new political game - which at the very least is an interesting phenomenon.

Whatever you or I thought Clegg was like last night, the received wisdom of the media is now that he was "the clear winner".

It's now a whole new ball game, which is why I'm so intrigued to see how the next one pans out.

First blood to the LibDems, no question.

[CarewsEyebrowDesigner]

North Koreas bombs can just about find their way half way to Alaska!

China are mostly defensive but as people have said their threat comes for their now all powerful grip on our balls through the economy (some say danger to environment but well im a skeptic so **** that.)

I don't think you can justify spending 100 billion on a nuclear defense system when the world is aiming to cut down on nuclear weapons, especially when you take into account what use that money can be put towards.

Scrap that and ID cards and voila you've a fair bit of dosh to reinvest in the country.

Also take into account we already have nuclear deterrents, albeit I think they were up in arms that not all 3 (or has one been decommisioned) can stay on all the time or something.

Also, I think a lot of people would like to discuss policies, but Cameron isn't making it possible with his reluctance to tell us how he will achieve it.

If we knew how, then we can make a fair comparison towards the three. It is so frustrating that he just wont come out and be honest about it, that is what people need. Clegg scored well because he was sincere and honest (and laughed at Gordon which always helps), why can't Cameron do the same?

Now is the time to let us now and last night was his chance but he blew it, he now has some serious rethinking to do before the next debate and hopefully get it right and let us know how he'll do things instead of just endless rhetoric about how Labour are balls and how he wants us to have hope and what not.

We know his policies, we know what his beliefs are. Now just come out and tell us how your going to do it!!!

[tonyh29]

First blood to the LibDems, no question.

the sky tracker shows a nice upward movement for them today ..

interestingly though Labours hasn't moved and although the Tory one dropped yesterday before the debates it hasn't dropped today ... meaning that the Lib Dems seem to have gained votes from the "Others" whose vote appears to have dipped today

It's now a whole new ball game, which is why I'm so intrigued to see how the next one pans out.

agreed .. If Clegg "wins" the next 2 as well I wonder what impact that could have on the over all vote

the other question I guess will be what impact will it have on future party leaders that a party chooses ... Someone like Hague never really connected with the public for example whatever his merits elsewhere ..will we end up becoming like the American system with celebs becoming PM as the public like them .. Gary Barlow for PM :shock:

[mjmooney]

First blood to the LibDems, no question.

the sky tracker shows a nice upward movement for them today ..

interestingly though Labours hasn't moved and although the Tory one dropped yesterday before the debates it hasn't dropped today ... meaning that the Lib Dems seem to have gained votes from the "Others" whose vote appears to have dipped today

It's now a whole new ball game, which is why I'm so intrigued to see how the next one pans out.

agreed .. If Clegg "wins" the next 2 as well I wonder what impact that could have on the over all vote

the other question I guess will be what impact will it have on future party leaders that a party chooses ... Someone like Hague never really connected with the public for example whatever his merits elsewhere ..will we end up becoming like the American system with celebs becoming PM as the public like them .. Gary Barlow for PM :shock:

Yes, I think that is a depressingly real possibility.

BTW, as Tories go I quite like Hague.

[drat01]

the sky tracker shows a nice upward movement for them today ..

interestingly though Labours hasn't moved and although the Tory one dropped yesterday before the debates it hasn't dropped today ... meaning that the Lib Dems seem to have gained votes from the "Others" whose vote appears to have dipped today

The thing is the stupid FPTP system we have in the UK means that results in the polls like this are not linear against the number of seats gained.

Gary Barlow for PM

with Paul Daniels as Chancellor ?

[drat01]

BTW, as Tories go I quite like Hague.

I used to like those conjoined twins - Ian and Duncan Smith

[TrentVilla]

this immigration to certain areas only policy .. I hear it works in Australia , fair enough but will it work in the UK ?

Quite simply it wouldn't, it works in Australia and Canada but the geography of those places lends itself to that system ours simply doesn't.

[mykeyb]

Since LibDems are bound to want Proportional Representation brought in as a condition of joining either party for a coalition government who do you think will be the first to crumble Labour or Conservatives

[mykeyb]

with Paul Daniels as Chancellor ?

My guess is we would like it but not a lot.

[TrentVilla]

this immigration to certain areas only policy .. I hear it works in Australia , fair enough but will it work in the UK ?

Quite simply it wouldn't, it works in Australia and Canada but the geography of those places lends itself to that system ours simply doesn't.

Oh and just to add I think Clegg knows it, he was grilled on this by Paxman earlier this week and lets just say he didn't perform as well as he did last night when his words were actually challanged.

He was asked to name an area in the country that has a labour shortage that could benefit from this type of system resulting in pure panic in his voice and no actual answer.

[KevMur]

Lats night's debate is like political Rashômon.

Thing is, most people will probably have it forgotten by the time it comes to vote.

The last debate will be very important.

[drat01]

Since LibDems are bound to want Proportional Representation brought in as a condition of joining either party for a coalition government who do you think will be the first to crumble Labour or Conservatives

Electoral reform has been proposed by the Lab party

But PR is something that should happen IMO

[tonyh29]

BTW, as Tories go I quite like Hague.

couple of my "floating" mates said they would vote Tory if he were the leader .. would a hung parliament see either the Labour or Tory party replace the leader though ?

[Chindie]

Hague was alright. Seemed to have his head screwed on when I met him when I was younger.

Still, Nasty Party and all that.

[Richard]

BTW, as Tories go I quite like Hague.

couple of my "floating" mates said they would vote Tory if he were the leader .. would a hung parliament see either the Labour or Tory party replace the leader though ?

Wouldn't have thought so. Hung parliament will probably lead to another election in October and I don't think either party would risk it

Reading this thread is an eye opener, although maybe I shouldn't be too surprised

[TrentVilla]

Hague was okay I agree, that young Conservative speech did him no favours though and I think be took the leadership at the wrong time.