Broken Britain?

[The_Rev]

Serious question: When exactly were the good old days?

I don't know. Before that clearing in the woods Bliar and his witless chum Brown got in?

The entire reason Blair got in were because those "good old days" were **** dreadful!

Indeed.

Mart's gone very non-committal there.

*The dark days of devaluation and the crash under major? Nope.

*The Maggie T years, and all the civil unrest and unemployment and unpopularity oif those times. The minors strikes. The poll tax riots.

*Pre 1979 - the labour government, rule by the unions and the winter of discontent?

Before that? Ted Heath and the 3 day week (rule by the unions again)

maybe we have to go back to the 60's or 50's?

Nice to see the sane people agree with me. You could probably pull political talk from any decade since we all started voting and people would be talking about how the country is going to hell in a handbasket. Truth is, it isnt. Most people pine for how things used to be, without stopping to think that those times never really existed, all they are remembering is an age when they had no responsibility or interest in following the news. It's like how almost everybody thinks the best music was the stuff that was recorded between the years of their 16th and 23rd birthdays. Nothing to do with the fact that that music was the soundtrack to the time when they were out every weekend getting pissed and having casual sex with strangers. Oh no. It was better in those years, not while they were that age. *coughs*

I would wager the thritysomethings of the 1960s were convinced that the crazy teenagers with their drugs and their rock'n' roll music were going to ruin us all. In the fifties nobody had any money, in the forties there was a world war, in the thirties there was the great depression...

Everybody talks of impending doom. It hasnt happened yet. Its like those BNP fuckheads who pretend they can remember a time when we all had thatched roofs and played cricket on the village green, when everybody knew everybody and you could leave your door open because crime wasnt invented until the Irish/Blacks/Jews/Muslims/Polaks* came over here with their thieving hands and free council houses.

People just have a fear of the unknown and panic when they realise that things aint what they used to be. Britain isnt broken.

*delete as applicable.

[snowychap]

Nice to see the sane people agree with me...

Your points are valid and, as an antidote to the standard 'Daily Heil' narrative about the trip to hades in a handbasket, it is, I think, very true.

Where I would like to differ from some (especially those who push the idea that everything is 'tickety boo') is to do with our politics, our justice system and our inequality.

Our politics is down the pan (it isn't just broken, it is abused, traumatised and close to beyond repair); our justice system isn't, as the Heil would like to portray, **** because of liberalism but **** because of the tinkering about by idiots.

As for inequality, things are not 'tickety boo' in that arena.

[leviramsey]

Beware of those who want to change society to make it as it was.

Why not have the imagination to make it better?

[LondonLax]

As for inequality, things are not 'tickety boo' in that arena.

The thing with inequality is worth making a point on if you are talking about finacial/standard of living inequality.

There is much greater equality for women and minorities than there ever has been at any other point in history (true equality has not been achieved yet but it is heading in the right direction year on year).

In the general population the gap between the richest and poorest is greater than it ever has been but the large middle chunk, i.e. the majority of population, has a higher living standard than it ever has had. In other words, things were more equal before because everyone was poorer and that is not a desirable place to return to either.

[El Zen]

There is a very interesting article in the Economist this week about how peoples perceptions of the state of society doesn't match up with the actual statistical data.

Yeah, it was the first article I read when I picked up the Economist this week. Interesting read, and it pretty much sums up how I feel about today's Britain.

[El Zen]

As for inequality, things are not 'tickety boo' in that arena.

The thing with inequality is worth making a point on if you are talking about finacial/standard of living inequality.

There is much greater equality for women and minorities than there ever has been at any other point in history (true equality has not been achieved yet but it is heading in the right direction year on year).

In the general population the gap between the richest and poorest is greater than it ever has been but the large middle chunk, i.e. the majority of population, has a higher living standard than it ever has had. In other words, things were more equal before because everyone was poorer and that is not a desirable place to return to either.

What's the current income gini coefficient for the UK? And how does it compare to, say, 13 years ago?

That's not a rhetorical question, btw. I just can't be bothered to look it up myself right now.

[Undesirable]

Surely it would have had to be fixed at some point for it to be broken?

There are a lot of issues with this countries society, from a crumbling NHS, dillapidated housing, children growing up in poverty, massive job insecurity, a feeling of complete powerlessness and alienation by a large section of society, a huge economic divide between rich and poor, the rise of nationalism. However a lot of the people who think that Britain is "broken" seem to point to things like drug abuse, absenteeism from schools, single mothers, lifelong welfare beneficaries, immigration, the notion of amoral behaviour,ASBO's etc. Granted some of these issues are problematic, but many are simply symptoms of the real issues in society and if you focus on the symptoms instead of the causes then you won't begin to ameliorate the situation.

In short Britain isn't broken, it's just a society at the whim of an economic system that is dieing on it's knees!

[Gringo]

man looks up on a yellow sky

and the rain turns to rust in his eye

rumours of his health are lies

his clothes are a dirty shade of blue

and his ancient shoes worn through

he steals from me and he lies to you

where criminals are televised

politicians fraternized

journalists are dignified

and everyone is civilized

and children stare with Heroin eyes

[Wainy316]

[LondonLax]

I blame the parents, how can they let their child drink Budweiser??

They should have introduced him to some of the lovely Czech or Belgian beers...

[CarewsEyebrowDesigner]

Bet it's empty.

[Chindie]

Do you not sense a separation between the state and the populace?

Are you not aware that people are starting to question your masters?

For example, Broon wanted to keep the inquests into the deaths of our soldiers secret. Broon wanted to keep the Silcott enquiry into the attack on Iraq secret. Broon wanted to bar the right of UK residence to Ghurkas. On all counts he failed because of public disquiet. People are starting to say "Whoa, hang on a minute, this aint right". This, I believe, is because politicians have lost their moral authority, partly I suspect because of the expenses disgrace.

You live in a state where the police can confidently and openly assault and kill members of the public in broad daylight in central London. Then the Home Secretary, our very own Jacquie whatsername, grants the police force an extra 10,000 Tasers. A state where politicians claim parliamentary priviledge when caught red handed thieving? I could go on, but I won't bore you. I don't wish it, but I do honestly believe that after the next election, there will be serious civil disturbance.

It's nailed on. Beware the rise of the BNP.

The UK aint the place it used to be unfortunately. I, for one, am pleased to be outa the place.

I'll admit that this isn't something I've put great thought into, but anywho, bearing that in mind...

I do sense theres a seperation between the state and populace... but I'd argue that's always been there. I don't think it's anything new whatsoever. People have never liked politicians. People have never liked the government (because it is never fulfilling all of their wishes/beliefs etc). What we have now is a frenzy whipped up out of new stories and narratives. It seems worse, is it? I'd argue probably not. Does it make any of the problems any less troublesome? Again, no, of course not. But I can't see that leading to civil disobedience - why? Because people rarely can be arsed, there are better things to do, it's someone elses problem, I'm alright Jack, it's not so bad.

Politician's lost most of their moral authority decades ago. They used to quietly respected, 40 years ago you wouldn't have had Paxman doing over Michael Howard, yet that's 13 years ago now. The expenses scandal hasn't helped, and indeed it's that and things like it that will push politicians to keep everything they can under their hat, sinister or not, because the world now relies on image to sell yourself. Half the game in politics these days is managing to skip past the instant view of yourself as a charlatan and manage to appear rounded considerate and reliable over the top of that cynicism. This death of the respect of the role of the poltician is somewhat of a vicious cycle - their mistakes coupled to media involvement murdered their image, they now protect it all costs by avoiding questions and dodging straight answers making them look worse and feeding the frenzy to make them look even less trustworthy.

I honestly believe if that power of the media to feed the public this image, and imbibe distrust in the elite didn't have quite the factor we'd have better politicians - they wouldn't be scared to piss off the Sun. Thats not to say what Brown intended with the Gurkhas and so on was for the right, of course it wasn't. But he's tried to do those things to save himself and his party for one end or another. Perhaps if he wasn't so judged on image, he could elaborate, freely and accurately, why he wanted to do these things explicitly. Still wouldn't make them right of course, but in other cases maybe we'd get to see genuine change for the better.

Nothing will happen post election - things will go on, as normal, more austere and grim, more grumbling, more cuts, but we'll get on with it. The BNP will gain a few votes, the numpties will rear their heads in things like the EDL marches occasionally, but widespread civil unrest will not be born of anything other than, like AWOL suggests, more or less financial disaster, genuine backs to the wall stuff, which I can't say I think will happen, regardless of me being a no nothing useless student.

EDIT - That turned into somewhat of a senseless, train of thought rant in the end, which is probably full of holes and bullshit. I'm sure someone will be enlighten me to my idiocy.

EDIT2 - I should probably say that, in my own take on the term Broken Britain, I've always seen it as the claptrap about the destruction of the family and feral kids and crime and collapse of manners and all that rubbish. To say Britain is completely without flaw is wrong - just as nowhere is. But I tend to see the flaws at above the level of the common man, and also not entirely born of politics either, though it has it's faults like the broken party system, but that in term is born of a paranoia of the media and those who wish that to be so. Society on that level, of governance and information, is a melting pot of lies, spin, truths wrapped in interests, and money, that means it has become somewhat deformed. It still works, theres nothing particularly wrong with the nation at the ground level, on a person to person basis, but it could be better beyond that.

I think theres some very sound idea in the belief that a lot of what could make society for humanity better is to reconsider society, to turn away to an extent from the wallet and the bottom line and consider a greater value in things that cannot be bought or sold - in truth, in fraternity, in community and ultimately in humanity, to bring back trust to the table, and so on.

...shit, it's another **** rant....

[blandy]

Society is "broken", always has been, always will be. The bits of it that are broken change, and sometimes more is broken than at others.

Gringo's quote from "Old England" is right. The Thatcher years were an example of when it was worse than it is now.

Like Levi says, trying to make it like it was is daft. I'm not sure that anyone (politically) is really going to make it better, based on what they say at the moment. And the concern about mass civil disobedience has got to be greater now, largely because the current political system has largely failed. People, widely, don't think that Red or Blue or Yellow party will "make things better". It's more single issue now, and many of these single issues are just ignored (in deed if not word) by the mainstream parties.

[villadude]

I've mentioned before on an earlier thread a couple of months back I'm hoping to make the move away from the UK. I'm hoping to be gone within the next 12 - 18 months time, can't wait.

Neither can we

Cheeky sod!

[MaxVillan]

We'll see exactly how 'broken' britain is in a few months, as the English Defence League have just recently announced a march in Bradford.

[Witton_Lane]

see, I can agree with you occasionally

Can't remember the name of the nightclub we used to go to ... when we got in there the ground floor had been sectioned off for lap dancing

Images (also previously known as 'Images on glass' and 'The Barn')

Same bloke on the door (at least the last time I went which was about 6 years ago) as was doing it when I was a teenager twenty years ago, a pleasant bloke called John (only difference was that he had gone grey).

Yeah I think that's the place....a complete toilet but oh so good

I don't remember the doorman to be honest as I was usually pretty well hammered when we arrived, big taxi in from Hallow with about 6 of us in it but I'll always have respect for the guy cos he let me in in those stupid loud bermudas, just because I seemed harmless. He was right too, I was harmless as a newt that night as I recall.

Shame Birmingham nightclubs ain't like that, I went to that place at least 20 times and never saw a single punch up, it was great.

[mjmooney]

But according to La Thatch, bad parenting was caused by The Evil Sixties.

Which is odd, considering that there is no such thing as society.