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Just now, AvfcRigo82 said:

How about watching the BBC documentary. That will be a good start.

Does the BBC documentary say that 'most of the folk begging and pleading homelessness that you mention, around 30% are geuine cases' as was your claim?

 

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4 hours ago, Dr_Pangloss said:

I do 2-3 days. I get far much more done, I'm a lot more productive, even work longer hours as I tend to 'log in' at the time I'd usually leave the door. On top of that I'm in an environment where I can concentrate more (no chit chat, no office noise distractions) and am far more comfortable (office is regularly hotter than Cancun with temperatures between 28-34 degrees due to women moaning that it's 'cold'). Thankfully I'm at a company where virtual meeting and calls are the norm as everyone is spread out across the country. Far better than companies populated by utter **** morons who see working from home as a bad thing.

Overall, with regular working from home my wellbeing is a lot better and I save money on commuting. It should be encouraged across the board where the industry permits. 

This times a million.

Company I work for are stuck in the dark ages around working from home unfortunately. The official company line is that you can do it, but in reality it's frowned upon. I rarely get to do it these days as a result.

Like you say, it should be the norm. There aren't many job roles in lots of companies that actually require you to be in the office all day every day.

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2 minutes ago, snowychap said:

Does the BBC documentary say that 'most of the folk begging and pleading homelessness that you mention, around 30% are geuine cases' as was your claim?

 

Did I mentuon in my post 'This is a definate UK figure'. I said around 30%. 

Now you're either interested in the topic as a whole or just nit picking my posts,  which is it?

I suggest you watch that and read the articles/evidence you asked for. Cheers

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23 minutes ago, Demitri_C said:

But leaving him or her in the street to fend for themselves helps? Surely that worse for you?

These are complicated people, with complicated problems. The easy cases don't end up on the streets. It certainly seems likely that a homeless shelter will be better than being on the streets for the majority, but part of the problem here is that 'one-size-fits-all' approaches don't work well. Maybe 'Luke' has a mental health condition that becomes exacerbated when in close quarters with other homeless people, who can of course be difficult, demanding, noisy, smelly, high etc etc. 

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6 minutes ago, HanoiVillan said:

These are complicated people, with complicated problems. The easy cases don't end up on the streets. It certainly seems likely that a homeless shelter will be better than being on the streets for the majority, but part of the problem here is that 'one-size-fits-all' approaches don't work well. Maybe 'Luke' has a mental health condition that becomes exacerbated when in close quarters with other homeless people, who can of course be difficult, demanding, noisy, smelly, high etc etc. 

That is true. 

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4 hours ago, Dr_Pangloss said:

I do 2-3 days. I get far much more done, I'm a lot more productive, even work longer hours as I tend to 'log in' at the time I'd usually leave the door. On top of that I'm in an environment where I can concentrate more (no chit chat, no office noise distractions) and am far more comfortable (office is regularly hotter than Cancun with temperatures between 28-34 degrees due to women moaning that it's 'cold'). Thankfully I'm at a company where virtual meeting and calls are the norm as everyone is spread out across the country. Far better than companies populated by utter **** morons who see working from home as a bad thing.

Overall, with regular working from home my wellbeing is a lot better and I save money on commuting. It should be encouraged across the board where the industry permits. 

I did 3 days last week at home and felt it was just a bit too much! 2 days is fine for me as I do get on with most of my colleagues so it is a good balance.

Don't you find it a bit lonely working from home?

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2-x-40ft-Single-Bedroom-Container-House.

cocoon-modules-container-house-1.jpg?autgallery-ten-large.jpg

shipping-container-house-prototype-by-co

 

What's a DDS bedsit / flat rental in London? Somewhere between 800 / 1100 a month?

There are private companies that will source, fit out and deliver a shipping container home with certification from Building Regs that it complies with all permanent home legislation. They'll do that as a one off private sale for 30k.

If only we had some land, eh. If only there were empty airfields, redundant prison sites, mothballed army camps, silted up docks, unprofitable farms, brownfield sites...

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1 minute ago, chrisp65 said:

If only we had some land, eh. If only there were empty airfields, redundant prison sites, mothballed army camps, silted up docks, unprofitable farms, brownfield sites...

Exactly. This country is so scarce in these things.

They even Demolished Ashwell prison in Rutland about 8 years ago. What a waste.

Now it's just empty land.

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1 hour ago, AvfcRigo82 said:

First link: I was homeless once – we need to face realities on housing instead of worrying about ‘fake beggars’

Quote

Mark Johnson, who was once homeless himself and now helps run a rehab charity, argues that our system and attitudes are letting people down

Nothing on there about proportion of genuine people who are begging and pleading homelessness. Indeed lower down in the article he even says:

Quote

As a former homeless person, I’ve been concerned by some of the recent reactions I’ve seen towards beggars like Dave – including claims by members of the public that many of those asking for money on the streets are “professionals,” and calls for a more aggressive response from law enforcement.

If he had any figures that supported these claims, I'd have thought he'd have proferred them here.

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Second link: How do you tell a genuine homeless person from a 'professional' beggar?

Quote

It is often hard to spot those who are fake from those who are telling the truth

No data in there, just 'a few pointers' on how, possibly, to tell the difference between someone genuine or not - something they acknowledge in the bit quoted above is often hard to do (not reallly supporting the idea that one should put much credence in to 'asking people what their first impression of people in a doorway is').

Oh and they also have a link to a Grimsby Telegraph article which quotes a report written for the council which also quotes a report written by an outreach charity but without links to either so we can't actually look at the data:

Quote

And a report by the council says the money which is handed over by concerned passers-by is commonly used to pay dealers for drugs.

It says: "There are approximately 16 active beggars currently known to agencies in North East Lincolnshire. The local beggars who frequent our public spaces do have complex needs which are predominantly around drug addiction.

"The vast majority have access to accommodation and are not deemed to be homeless.They have refused to engage with the services and it is evident that they continue to beg in order to obtain money which in most cases will be used to fund their drug addiction.”

And the council quoted recent research by an outreach charity which reported that most cash handed out to beggars ended up in the hands of drug dealers.

The report said: "In 80% of cases the money given to an individual either funds a drug or alcohol habit and the person begging is not actually homeless."

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Third link: Torygraph

Quote

Beggars on streets are not homeless, they're fraudsters, say police

No data in there just a claim from the local police that 'there are no rough sleepers in Ely.'

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Fourth link: Revealed: Cambridge's problem with fake homelessness

Quote

Four in five of Cambridge's most regular beggars are not homeless, a new documentary has claimed.

The problem of people "masquerading" has also been highlighted by Cambridgeshire's police and crime commissioner, who urged the public not to give money to beggars.

A BBC Three investigation will explore Cambridgeshire's 'fake beggar' crisis with a documentary due to be released on iPlayer this Sunday (November 25).

This is an article about the BBC documentary to which you've also posted a link.

From that article:

Quote

Visiting Cambridge she met with Cambridgeshire police, who confirmed around 80 per cent of the 30 regular beggars they were investigating had accommodation of some kind.

So that's 80 per cent of the 30 regular beggars they were investigating.

Also, later in that article:

Quote

The documentary also investigates the problem in Liverpool where similar to Cambridge, around 80 per cent of those arrested for begging were also found to have some kind of accomodation.

As per the previous post on this specific point, this is about 80 per cent of those arrested for begging. What about those not arrested for begging? And as per my preevious question relating to the actual figures quoted is this begging arrest incidents or actually different people who were arrested for begging.

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Fifth link: Full Fact page about Homelessness

Quote

Homelessness in England

There’s a legal duty for the state to help people who are homeless or threatened with homelessness.

Whilst that's a decent resource and informative in terms of what may or may not constitute homelessness, what councils are bound statutoirly to do to resolve this and numbers of homeless, I can't see what data is here in order to suppport your orioginal claim.

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Sixth link: Homeless tents removed from Cardiff city centre

Quote

Abandoned tents belonging to rough sleepers in Cardiff city centre have been removed, the council has said.

No data in here about proportion of genuine people amongst beggars. Indeed, I don't see any mention in the article at all about begging.

 

So, in the first six links you've provided there isn't a great deal of data to support your original claim.

Edit: Like I said, when I get the time, I'll look at the other links (which I've removed from the quoted post above so as to comply with the site requirements).

Edited by snowychap

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29 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

shipping-container-house-prototype-by-co

 

 

If only we had some land, eh. If only there were empty airfields, redundant prison sites, mothballed army camps, silted up docks, unprofitable farms, brownfield sites...

Looks nice in the field - would it look as nice in London or Lye? :D

ReadyPlayerOneT3-022.jpg

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9 minutes ago, snowychap said:

So, in the first six links you've provided there isn't a great deal of data to support your original claim.

Cool.

Out of interest, why is it bothering you so much?

I have quoted the figure on research I had done over the months. I cannot find/post everything I have seen and read.

But reading and watching what I did, it,'s not mathmatically impossible to work out that percentage is not too far off. I'm sure you'll do your best to prove otherwise though.

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51 minutes ago, AvfcRigo82 said:

Did I mentuon in my post 'This is a definate UK figure'. I said around 30%.

Which is what I quoted.

Your claim was ' most of the folk begging and pleading homelessness that you mention, around 30% are geuine cases'. As I've quoted, you said 'around'. I have not said anything about any sort of precise figure but I'm certainly looking for data that supports the claim that 'most of the folk begging and pleading homelessness that you mention, around 30% are geuine cases'

Quote

Now you're either interested in the topic as a whole or just nit picking my posts,  which is it?

I'm interested in the topic as you ought to have gathered by my response to @Shropshire Lad's post and the article quoted within it, i.e. it was, I hope a considered and thoughtful, though questioning, response to the article and the data within.

55 minutes ago, AvfcRigo82 said:

I suggest you watch that and read the articles/evidence you asked for. Cheers

As per my previous post, I've read the first half dozen of articles/web pages you've linked.

Unsurprisingly, it's going to take more than a short time to go through them all especiallly as you haven't indicated where in this haystack your needle of supporting evidence is.

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Everyone loves a bit of outrage

Journalist fancies an easy day, Finds a genuine rough sleeper and buys him a cup of coffee and gives him a fiver, then asks him to point out an imposter beggar out. Stalks the imposter beggar and waits until he drives away in his Merc. Takes photos, he can get the registered keeper of the Merc off the DVLA App

retires to the cafe, writes his story over a latte and bags himself the front page

And the easily outraged believe most of the beggars aren't homeless... again

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6 minutes ago, AvfcRigo82 said:

Cool.

Out of interest, why is it bothering you so much?

I have quoted the figure on research I had done over the months. I cannot find/post everything I have seen and read.

But reading and watching what I did, it,'s not mathmatically impossible to work out that percentage is not too far off.

It pisses me off when people just throw random stuff out as 'facts' or 'findings' without sufficient robust data to back it up.

You haven't 'quoted a figure', have you? If you have quoted it, where is it from? You haven't given a source for this figure you're now claiming to have quoted other than some nebulous 'research'.

You've read some articles in a few newspapers and on the BBC and have watched a documentary. That appears to be all. You haven't gathered data from which to draw a proper inference. You haven't used data to 'mathematically work out' a percentagem have you?

If you have then you'd be able to show us this data and your workings.

Quote

I'm sure you'll do your best to prove otherwise though.

It's not up to me to 'prove otherwise'. It's up to you to substantiate your claim.

I considered myself to be rather generous in taking my time to work through all of the seemingly random links you provided in order to see if there was the evidence to support this original claim. That isn't how it ought to be but I was hoping to find something that you haven't yet been able to clearly provide.

Like I said above, I've been through some of it. I'll take my time going through the rest as I fear that there isn't any such evidence to be found.

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5 minutes ago, bickster said:

Everyone loves a bit of outrage

Journalist fancies an easy day, Finds a genuine rough sleeper and buys him a cup of coffee and gives him a fiver, then asks him to point out an imposter beggar out. Stalks the imposter beggar and waits until he drives away in his Merc. Takes photos, he can get the registered keeper of the Merc off the DVLA App

retires to the cafe, writes his story over a latte and bags himself the front page

And the easily outraged believe most of the beggars aren't homeless... again

Its a step up form the usual article nowadays which is generally a copy and paste of some z-list celebs twitter or instagram page.

What happened to quality journalism? 

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So do people give loose change to homeless people they see?

I have done, although can’t remember the last time I did. Not sure what makes me give change on occasion and not another. Maybe if it’s a miserable day or something like that I may be more likely to do so.

I’ll generally give to a big issue seller, the one in my local village and if I’m in a town centre and the seller there is particularly cheerful I’ll give them a quid. I don’t take the magazine though.

Edited by Shropshire Lad

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9 minutes ago, snowychap said:

It pisses me off when people just throw random stuff out as 'facts' or 'findings' without sufficient robust data to back it up.

You haven't 'quoted a figure', have you? If you have quoted it, where is it from? You haven't given a source for this figure you're now claiming to have quoted other than some nebulous 'research'.

You've read some articles in a few newspapers and on the BBC and have watched a documentary. That appears to be all. You haven't gathered data from which to draw a proper inference. You haven't used data to 'mathematically work out' a percentagem have you?

If you have then you'd be able to show us this data and your workings.

It's not up to me to 'prove otherwise'. It's up to you to substantiate your claim.

I considered myself to be rather generous in taking my time to work through all of the seemingly random links you provided in order to see if there was the evidence to support this original claim. That isn't how it ought to be but I was hoping to find something that you haven't yet been able to clearly provide.

Like I said above, I've been through some of it. I'll take my time going through the rest as I fear that there isn't any such evidence to be found.

Jesus christ lighten up.

I was going by what I had read and researched over months, even talking to some folk at Charities about some of the issues.

From what I gathered of my findings I put it down to around 30% what I had 'viewed' to be the case that was genuine compared to the grand scheme.

Sorry it has caused you offence or to feel the way it has, I didn't realise you felt so strongly. You are not the only person going through shit either pal!

Again, expecting me to show you everything that I spent months going over at the click of a finger was not going to happen. You read it all in your own timr, watch the bbc thing when you can and do more on the subject and see where you're at. 

Had I said.. official figures show that 30% blah blah blah then I would see your point.

I came to it that around 30% of 100% in some cases based on what I had read and researched.

Again, I didn't realise my post would have such an effect on you like it has.

And fwiw. Il apologise to anyone else now that may also feel aggrevied about my post!

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26 minutes ago, Xela said:

What happened to quality journalism? 

No one wants to pay for it.

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