chrisp65 Posted February 10, 2019 Share Posted February 10, 2019 Crisis is a good source of actual fact and statistical breakdown and recognised definition of what constitiutes homeless. Whilst it's an interested party, Big Issue is also a good source of figures and definitions. I'd trust Big Issue before I trusted the genuine scientific research of a TV programme with an angle. According to Big Issue: Quote Between 4,000 and 5,000 people bed down on the streets on any given night, a figure that has almost doubled since 2010. Quote An estimated 320,000 people are homeless in the UK, according to research by Shelter – that is one in every 201 Brits and an increase of four per cent on last year’s number. Within that figure of 320,000 homeless, there are 130,000 homeless children. As for the correlation between begging and homelessness, that's looking almost impossible to pin down. There has always been both, there has always been the professional beggar. Not all homeless beg. Crisis estimate that a very small per centage of the homeless beg, given that 320,000 are homeless, that sounds reasonable. Since begging has become a recordable offence, there are police figures. But these only show that of the numbers arrested 80% were not technically homeless. What it doesn't record, is the number of genuinely destitute that police officers have simply spoken to, cautioned or moved on, as any official action against the genuinely homeless would be futile. The police are far more likely to arrest known panhandlers, which is rightly so, but skews the recorded figure thus allowing the usual newspapers to drip feed headlines about street people being fakes. What is absolutely proven and agreed by all that have done any serious research, homelessness has increased massively under this tory government. That's not politics, that's simple absolute numbers. There are far more now than there were under Labour. Not up for any serious debate. Lastly, Big Issue would urge that you do not give money to beggars. It either goes in to the pocket of a fraud, a panhandler, or it aides the downward spiral of someone in genuine need of support. Bath has a scheme where if you feel compassion for beggars, you can text a donation to a central source rather than hand over cash. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AvfcRigo82 Posted February 10, 2019 Share Posted February 10, 2019 (edited) 2 hours ago, chrisp65 said: I'd be genuinely interested if you could post a link or a reference to some good research. Here are most of the links of places where I had researched based on my findings. *Sorry to mods in advance for only posting links and not highlighting the articles contained within. There are quite a few and do not want to clog the thread. So.. https://inews.co.uk/news/uk/homelessness-truth-about-britains-beggars-bbc-radio-4-mark-johnson/amp/ https://www.nottinghampost.com/news/uk-world-news/how-you-tell-genuine-homeless-940819.amp https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/02/25/every-beggar-britains-smallest-city-fake-according-police/amp/ https://www.cambridge-news.co.uk/news/cambridge-news/revealed-cambridges-problem-fake-homelessness-15452620.amp https://fullfact.org/economy/homelessness-england/ https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-wales-47178476 https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/homelessness-crisis-uk-rough-sleeping-cars-tents-streets-crisis-charity-report-a8696791.html?amp https://www.homeless.org.uk/facts-figures https://www.bigissue.com/latest/social-activism/how-many-people-are-homeless-in-the-uk-and-what-can-you-do-about-it/ https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2018/11/22/uk/homelessness-britain-rise-gbr-intl-scli/index.html https://www.crisis.org.uk/ending-homelessness/about-homelessness/ https://amp.theguardian.com/society/2018/nov/22/at-least-320000-homeless-people-in-britain-says-shelter 2 hours ago, Shropshire Lad said: there was a programme about “fake homeless people” last year which I haven’t watched, looks like it can be viewed on the iPlayer. Yep. Watched the same one also basing some my facts/findings from some of it which is here: https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/p06r9xbq/fake-homeless-whos-begging-on-the-streets The guy in Torbay was going the wrong way about it for sure. Very irresponsible. Edited February 10, 2019 by AvfcRigo82 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demitri_C Posted February 10, 2019 Share Posted February 10, 2019 30 minutes ago, HanoiVillan said: It's entirely possible that it might, depending on his condition. But leaving him or her in the street to fend for themselves helps? Surely that worse for you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AvfcRigo82 Posted February 10, 2019 Share Posted February 10, 2019 (edited) 22 minutes ago, chrisp65 said: Bath has a scheme where if you feel compassion for beggars, you can text a donation to a central source rather than hand over cash. It's okay being a central source but how much of that donation will that person see minus admin fees? Edited February 10, 2019 by AvfcRigo82 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AvfcRigo82 Posted February 10, 2019 Share Posted February 10, 2019 3 hours ago, snowychap said: My post has asked you if you have any evidence to show to support your earlier claim. You have, so far, provided none. Highlighted and posted above, Snowy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted February 10, 2019 Share Posted February 10, 2019 Just now, AvfcRigo82 said: It's okay being a central source but how much of that donation will that person see minus admin fees? Well, they pointedly ask that question of themselves on the webpage, and then equally pointedly don't actually answer it. Suffice to say, it's an interesting concept, but central Bath is very much geared to promoting the businesses that profit from tourism. Not, geared quite so much to genuinely helping the homeless. But the simple fact is, if we give to charities and not directly to street beggars. Then the problem of the professional beggar will be greatly reduced and more money will be put to good use, not towards spice and Bentleys. Street begging is not a problem that will go away, but can be massively reduced by thinking before cash is handed to somebosy with spice spots. Homelessness is something which can be greatly reduced very quickly by a caring government. Political will could see homelessness all but eradicated this year. It won't happen. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AvfcRigo82 Posted February 10, 2019 Share Posted February 10, 2019 1 minute ago, chrisp65 said: Well, they pointedly ask that question of themselves on the webpage, and then equally pointedly don't actually answer it. Suffice to say, it's an interesting concept, but central Bath is very much geared to promoting the businesses that profit from tourism. Not, geared quite so much to genuinely helping the homeless. But the simple fact is, if we give to charities and not directly to street beggars. Then the problem of the professional beggar will be greatly reduced and more money will be put to good use, not towards spice and Bentleys. Street begging is not a problem that will go away, but can be massively reduced by thinking before cash is handed to somebosy with spice spots. Homelessness is something which can be greatly reduced very quickly by a caring government. Political will could see homelessness all but eradicated this year. It won't happen. Spot on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted February 10, 2019 Share Posted February 10, 2019 (edited) 9 minutes ago, AvfcRigo82 said: Highlighted and posted above, Snowy. I've read the first 6 and none of them are evidence suppporting your claim that 'most of the folk begging and pleading homelessness that you mention, around 30% are geuine cases.' Could you point me to which one of these links contains the evidence suppporting your claim? If not, I'll have to work my way through the rest when I have the time. Edit: 6 read not 5. Edited February 10, 2019 by snowychap Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AvfcRigo82 Posted February 10, 2019 Share Posted February 10, 2019 Just now, snowychap said: I've read the first 5 and none of them are evidence suppporting your claim that 'most of the folk begging and pleading homelessness that you mention, around 30% are geuine cases.' Could you point me to which one of these links contains the evidence suppporting your claim? If not, I'll have to work my way through the rest when I have the time. How about watching the BBC documentary. That will be a good start. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted February 10, 2019 Share Posted February 10, 2019 Just now, AvfcRigo82 said: How about watching the BBC documentary. That will be a good start. Does the BBC documentary say that 'most of the folk begging and pleading homelessness that you mention, around 30% are geuine cases' as was your claim? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted February 10, 2019 Author VT Supporter Share Posted February 10, 2019 4 hours ago, Dr_Pangloss said: I do 2-3 days. I get far much more done, I'm a lot more productive, even work longer hours as I tend to 'log in' at the time I'd usually leave the door. On top of that I'm in an environment where I can concentrate more (no chit chat, no office noise distractions) and am far more comfortable (office is regularly hotter than Cancun with temperatures between 28-34 degrees due to women moaning that it's 'cold'). Thankfully I'm at a company where virtual meeting and calls are the norm as everyone is spread out across the country. Far better than companies populated by utter **** morons who see working from home as a bad thing. Overall, with regular working from home my wellbeing is a lot better and I save money on commuting. It should be encouraged across the board where the industry permits. This times a million. Company I work for are stuck in the dark ages around working from home unfortunately. The official company line is that you can do it, but in reality it's frowned upon. I rarely get to do it these days as a result. Like you say, it should be the norm. There aren't many job roles in lots of companies that actually require you to be in the office all day every day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AvfcRigo82 Posted February 10, 2019 Share Posted February 10, 2019 2 minutes ago, snowychap said: Does the BBC documentary say that 'most of the folk begging and pleading homelessness that you mention, around 30% are geuine cases' as was your claim? Did I mentuon in my post 'This is a definate UK figure'. I said around 30%. Now you're either interested in the topic as a whole or just nit picking my posts, which is it? I suggest you watch that and read the articles/evidence you asked for. Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted February 10, 2019 Share Posted February 10, 2019 23 minutes ago, Demitri_C said: But leaving him or her in the street to fend for themselves helps? Surely that worse for you? These are complicated people, with complicated problems. The easy cases don't end up on the streets. It certainly seems likely that a homeless shelter will be better than being on the streets for the majority, but part of the problem here is that 'one-size-fits-all' approaches don't work well. Maybe 'Luke' has a mental health condition that becomes exacerbated when in close quarters with other homeless people, who can of course be difficult, demanding, noisy, smelly, high etc etc. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AvfcRigo82 Posted February 10, 2019 Share Posted February 10, 2019 6 minutes ago, HanoiVillan said: These are complicated people, with complicated problems. The easy cases don't end up on the streets. It certainly seems likely that a homeless shelter will be better than being on the streets for the majority, but part of the problem here is that 'one-size-fits-all' approaches don't work well. Maybe 'Luke' has a mental health condition that becomes exacerbated when in close quarters with other homeless people, who can of course be difficult, demanding, noisy, smelly, high etc etc. That is true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post chrisp65 Posted February 10, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted February 10, 2019 There simply isn't a reliable figure gathered in a statistically legitimate way. That the Office of National Statistics refuse to recognise police arrest or caution rates as any proof of anything tells you much of what you need to know. That the Sun, Telegraph and Express will happily print police anecdotes about professsional beggars tells just as much. There are professional beggars, there are genuine beggars, there are genuine homeless. On a Venn diagramm, the groups would hardly touch. The per centage of the 320,000 homeless that beg is so small as to be virtually zero. The figures are further skewed by perception. Whilst hundreds of thousands are sofa surfing and trying to get an appointment to get on a list to get out of a bedsit. One bastard on a busy High Street can influence the opinion of a thousand passers by who now perceive 'the homeless' as a problem somebody should shoe away. Don't put money in the hands of people on the street. Do buy the Big Issue, do donate to Shelter and Crisis. Do consider which party might give a shit next time you vote. One thing I've noticed recently is the physical planning of town centers is evolving. Not in the crass way you might have spikey paving to stop rough sleepers (eh, labour?). But in designing out the recess and open lobby of many shops. Everytime I'm involved in any High Street refurb, shopfront and doors are being pushed out to be a flush fronted demise. You shoppers dont get a transition before the rain to put your brolly up, the shop staff don't get a transition area to stop cold wind and leaves etc.. The rough sleeper doesn't get somewhere to put down a sleeping bag with some semblance of shelter. I wonder if the rise in tents might be slightly influenced by the change in physical environment? 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xela Posted February 10, 2019 Share Posted February 10, 2019 4 hours ago, Dr_Pangloss said: I do 2-3 days. I get far much more done, I'm a lot more productive, even work longer hours as I tend to 'log in' at the time I'd usually leave the door. On top of that I'm in an environment where I can concentrate more (no chit chat, no office noise distractions) and am far more comfortable (office is regularly hotter than Cancun with temperatures between 28-34 degrees due to women moaning that it's 'cold'). Thankfully I'm at a company where virtual meeting and calls are the norm as everyone is spread out across the country. Far better than companies populated by utter **** morons who see working from home as a bad thing. Overall, with regular working from home my wellbeing is a lot better and I save money on commuting. It should be encouraged across the board where the industry permits. I did 3 days last week at home and felt it was just a bit too much! 2 days is fine for me as I do get on with most of my colleagues so it is a good balance. Don't you find it a bit lonely working from home? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted February 10, 2019 Share Posted February 10, 2019 What's a DDS bedsit / flat rental in London? Somewhere between 800 / 1100 a month? There are private companies that will source, fit out and deliver a shipping container home with certification from Building Regs that it complies with all permanent home legislation. They'll do that as a one off private sale for 30k. If only we had some land, eh. If only there were empty airfields, redundant prison sites, mothballed army camps, silted up docks, unprofitable farms, brownfield sites... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AvfcRigo82 Posted February 10, 2019 Share Posted February 10, 2019 1 minute ago, chrisp65 said: If only we had some land, eh. If only there were empty airfields, redundant prison sites, mothballed army camps, silted up docks, unprofitable farms, brownfield sites... Exactly. This country is so scarce in these things. They even Demolished Ashwell prison in Rutland about 8 years ago. What a waste. Now it's just empty land. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted February 10, 2019 Share Posted February 10, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, AvfcRigo82 said: https://inews.co.uk/news/uk/homelessness-truth-about-britains-beggars-bbc-radio-4-mark-johnson/amp/ https://www.nottinghampost.com/news/uk-world-news/how-you-tell-genuine-homeless-940819.amp https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/02/25/every-beggar-britains-smallest-city-fake-according-police/amp/ https://www.cambridge-news.co.uk/news/cambridge-news/revealed-cambridges-problem-fake-homelessness-15452620.amp https://fullfact.org/economy/homelessness-england/ https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-wales-47178476 First link: I was homeless once – we need to face realities on housing instead of worrying about ‘fake beggars’ Quote Mark Johnson, who was once homeless himself and now helps run a rehab charity, argues that our system and attitudes are letting people down Nothing on there about proportion of genuine people who are begging and pleading homelessness. Indeed lower down in the article he even says: Quote As a former homeless person, I’ve been concerned by some of the recent reactions I’ve seen towards beggars like Dave – including claims by members of the public that many of those asking for money on the streets are “professionals,” and calls for a more aggressive response from law enforcement. If he had any figures that supported these claims, I'd have thought he'd have proferred them here. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Second link: How do you tell a genuine homeless person from a 'professional' beggar? Quote It is often hard to spot those who are fake from those who are telling the truth No data in there, just 'a few pointers' on how, possibly, to tell the difference between someone genuine or not - something they acknowledge in the bit quoted above is often hard to do (not reallly supporting the idea that one should put much credence in to 'asking people what their first impression of people in a doorway is'). Oh and they also have a link to a Grimsby Telegraph article which quotes a report written for the council which also quotes a report written by an outreach charity but without links to either so we can't actually look at the data: Quote And a report by the council says the money which is handed over by concerned passers-by is commonly used to pay dealers for drugs. It says: "There are approximately 16 active beggars currently known to agencies in North East Lincolnshire. The local beggars who frequent our public spaces do have complex needs which are predominantly around drug addiction. "The vast majority have access to accommodation and are not deemed to be homeless.They have refused to engage with the services and it is evident that they continue to beg in order to obtain money which in most cases will be used to fund their drug addiction.” And the council quoted recent research by an outreach charity which reported that most cash handed out to beggars ended up in the hands of drug dealers. The report said: "In 80% of cases the money given to an individual either funds a drug or alcohol habit and the person begging is not actually homeless." ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Third link: Torygraph Quote Beggars on streets are not homeless, they're fraudsters, say police No data in there just a claim from the local police that 'there are no rough sleepers in Ely.' ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fourth link: Revealed: Cambridge's problem with fake homelessness Quote Four in five of Cambridge's most regular beggars are not homeless, a new documentary has claimed. The problem of people "masquerading" has also been highlighted by Cambridgeshire's police and crime commissioner, who urged the public not to give money to beggars. A BBC Three investigation will explore Cambridgeshire's 'fake beggar' crisis with a documentary due to be released on iPlayer this Sunday (November 25). This is an article about the BBC documentary to which you've also posted a link. From that article: Quote Visiting Cambridge she met with Cambridgeshire police, who confirmed around 80 per cent of the 30 regular beggars they were investigating had accommodation of some kind. So that's 80 per cent of the 30 regular beggars they were investigating. Also, later in that article: Quote The documentary also investigates the problem in Liverpool where similar to Cambridge, around 80 per cent of those arrested for begging were also found to have some kind of accomodation. As per the previous post on this specific point, this is about 80 per cent of those arrested for begging. What about those not arrested for begging? And as per my preevious question relating to the actual figures quoted is this begging arrest incidents or actually different people who were arrested for begging. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fifth link: Full Fact page about Homelessness Quote Homelessness in England There’s a legal duty for the state to help people who are homeless or threatened with homelessness. Whilst that's a decent resource and informative in terms of what may or may not constitute homelessness, what councils are bound statutoirly to do to resolve this and numbers of homeless, I can't see what data is here in order to suppport your orioginal claim. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Sixth link: Homeless tents removed from Cardiff city centre Quote Abandoned tents belonging to rough sleepers in Cardiff city centre have been removed, the council has said. No data in here about proportion of genuine people amongst beggars. Indeed, I don't see any mention in the article at all about begging. So, in the first six links you've provided there isn't a great deal of data to support your original claim. Edit: Like I said, when I get the time, I'll look at the other links (which I've removed from the quoted post above so as to comply with the site requirements). Edited February 10, 2019 by snowychap Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheAuthority Posted February 10, 2019 VT Supporter Share Posted February 10, 2019 29 minutes ago, chrisp65 said: If only we had some land, eh. If only there were empty airfields, redundant prison sites, mothballed army camps, silted up docks, unprofitable farms, brownfield sites... Looks nice in the field - would it look as nice in London or Lye? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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