sharkyvilla Posted October 12, 2019 Share Posted October 12, 2019 On 11/10/2019 at 13:35, choffer said: Working from home today. Didn’t get much done this morning as I was watching this. It really struck me how much I missed the show and the characters in it so I loved watching El Camino but I think I need to watch it again as I was all too excited to work out if it’s any good. Felt like a longer episode rather than a film but still loved it. Yes it was good to see some old characters, I'm not sure the film really needed making tbh but an enjoyable watch anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theboyangel Posted October 12, 2019 Share Posted October 12, 2019 Is it worth re watching the last few episodes of Breaking Bad before watching El Camino or is it sufficiently revisited during the film? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PieFacE Posted October 12, 2019 VT Supporter Share Posted October 12, 2019 Joker was incredible. Loved every minute of it. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bizzzle Posted October 12, 2019 Share Posted October 12, 2019 20 minutes ago, theboyangel said: Is it worth re watching the last few episodes of Breaking Bad before watching El Camino or is it sufficiently revisited during the film? I watched the final season again before I watched it but if you watch it on Netflix which I imagine you will then there is a decent recap on the entire season before the film starts so there's no real need to 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ingram85 Posted October 12, 2019 Share Posted October 12, 2019 It was a nice bookend to an amazing story. Great to spend some time in that world again and the ending plus things you find out during the film wrapped it up well for me. I always felt Jesse's end story was overlooked in the last series a bit so it was nice for him to get his arc tied up and resolved somewhat. The last shot made me very happy. I can understand why someone thought El Camino was rubbish, but I loved it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sharkyvilla Posted October 13, 2019 Share Posted October 13, 2019 (edited) 8 hours ago, theboyangel said: Is it worth re watching the last few episodes of Breaking Bad before watching El Camino or is it sufficiently revisited during the film? I didnt bother, it had flashbacks in it so it was fairly easy to follow. There was only one bit at the end that I had to Google about but that was from a couple of seasons ago from what I remember anyway. Edited October 13, 2019 by sharkyvilla 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PieFacE Posted October 13, 2019 VT Supporter Share Posted October 13, 2019 (edited) So for anyone who's seen Joker.. Spoiler Major spoilers here so only click if you're sure.... Spoiler Do you think the whole film was a memory, or completely made up? The fact that Bruce's parents were killed leads me to think it was a memory from the mind of Joker, but i'm not 100% sure to be honest. Also, one thing that did slightly baffle me is the age difference between the young Bruce and Joker. Surely by the time Bruce has grown up, Joker would be about 60 Edited October 13, 2019 by PieFacE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demitri_C Posted October 13, 2019 Share Posted October 13, 2019 13 hours ago, theboyangel said: Is it worth re watching the last few episodes of Breaking Bad before watching El Camino or is it sufficiently revisited during the film? I'm just putting this on now. I so can't wait ! As others have said a very good recap so you don't have to 're watch 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sne Posted October 13, 2019 Share Posted October 13, 2019 (edited) That new Breaking Bad movie really didn't need to be made. Utterly forgetful cash grab 5/10 should have gone with my instinct and not watched it. Edited October 13, 2019 by sne 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demitri_C Posted October 13, 2019 Share Posted October 13, 2019 12 minutes ago, sne said: That new Breaking Bad movie really didn't need to be made. Utterly forgetful cash grab 5,5/10 should have gone with my instinct and not watched it. I have to say I didn't enjoy it at all. Boring drags on and just as you say wasn't needed. Added nothing to the ending of the show. Terrible 3/10 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PieFacE Posted October 13, 2019 VT Supporter Share Posted October 13, 2019 I liked it. Thought it was a good conclusion to Jesse's story. It probably didn't need to be made but I appreciate the clarification to what happened to him. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demitri_C Posted October 13, 2019 Share Posted October 13, 2019 Just now, PieFacE said: I liked it. Thought it was a good conclusion to Jesse's story. It probably didn't need to be made but I appreciate the clarification to what happened to him. But really we could have imagined that. It didn't excite. For the way it was made it really didn't have to be made. Felt like a dragged out episode as opposed to the movie. Found it very boring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted October 13, 2019 Share Posted October 13, 2019 I watched El Camino last night, I’m not much of a film watcher so I’m possibly not reviewing it in the same way as others with a few more movies under their belt. I thought it was perfectly fine, more of a long episode than a film but no worse for it. I did enjoy all the retro cars planted throughout (yes, I know it was called El Camino) and a nice song half way through that I’ll look up later. Plus, it still didn’t completely close the story, so there’s still an opportunity for a new adventure in a few years time. Glad it didn’t try and introduce anything too new or too spectacular. Paced about right for me. Certainly a great improvement on the Call Saul spin off which I just couldn’t get in to. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vive_La_Villa Posted October 13, 2019 Share Posted October 13, 2019 20 minutes ago, chrisp65 said: I watched El Camino last night, I’m not much of a film watcher so I’m possibly not reviewing it in the same way as others with a few more movies under their belt. I thought it was perfectly fine, more of a long episode than a film but no worse for it. I did enjoy all the retro cars planted throughout (yes, I know it was called El Camino) and a nice song half way through that I’ll look up later. Plus, it still didn’t completely close the story, so there’s still an opportunity for a new adventure in a few years time. Glad it didn’t try and introduce anything too new or too spectacular. Paced about right for me. Certainly a great improvement on the Call Saul spin off which I just couldn’t get in to. I though Better call Saul was better than Breaking bad. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Chindie Posted October 13, 2019 VT Supporter Popular Post Share Posted October 13, 2019 Saw Joker last night. Hmm. One of the more difficult films for me to rate I think. A film of 2 souls perhaps. Anywho, a brief synopsis... Arthur Fleck is a clown for hire in a 1980s Gotham. Arthur is a timid and beaten down man with mental problems. He has a condition that causes him to laugh uncontrollably, notably at moments of stress, but he also seems to be detached from the world - his colleagues find him creepy, he doesn't seem to relate to anyone, he has flights of fantasy. Gotham meanwhile is on the verge of societal turmoil. Arthur slowly descends into outright madness as the world around him starts to go mad itself, and he becomes a different man... I really am a bit torn with this, probably in a way that most people won't be. First, however, the good. It's a cracking performance from Phoenix. The role is one we've seen before from him in many ways, the detached loner with a psycho streak, but here it's amped up that little bit more. Arthur is literally nuts, and everything about him is awkward and strained. His movement is gawky, he contorts himself in pent up strained positions as if his mental anguish is extending out through his limbs, and of course he's extremely thin (though he also accentuates this with his posture and movement - he walks at times with his shoulder blades flexed out awkwardly, or is taking very shallow breaths to emphasise his ribs). Theres an eternal sadness in his face, even when hidden behind his clown makeup. And for all intents and purposes it's his movie - the cast is tiny and no role has more than a handful of lines besides Phoenix. It's pretty much a pure character study in that sense, everyone around Phoenix is a prop to bounce his character off. Thats not to say that anyone is bad, although equally I don't think they all knock it out of the park either - De Niro has a weird performance imo for instance, particularly in the finale where he is reading lines in a manner reminiscent of a school nativity play where the kid forgot his lines. It's beautifully shot and wears it's early Scorsese influence on it's sleeve - it echoes Taxi Driver and King of Comedy everywhere, literally. The homages are littered throughout, the look of the film, the way it's shot, the script borrows liberally from those films... But to good effect. Theres some wonderful images in this. And it has a great soundtrack, a tense grimy rumbling undertone punctuated by moments of serenity and odd segments of outright joy - the Glitter moment is excellent, only hurt by the fact that... well... it's a Gary Glitter song. The character of Arthur Fleck is a great creation too. And it's bloody funny at times too, even when it really shouldn't be. And it does have a message, one that isn't seen much in mainstream cinema (although even that is undermined by the logos that precede the movie). But... It's not perfect by any means. It feels woefully underwritten at times. Every character is a cardboard cutout besides Fleck, everyone Fleck meets is a prick, with a couple of notable exceptions who represent the other side of the cardboard. If you're charitable you can argue that theres a thematic justification for this, but personally I walked away thinking that actually, no, it's just not written very well in many respects. A significant undercurrent of the plot isn't developed or built upon at all, which harms it's message - we are told and shown that something is the way it is, and thats it, and that means that the movie doesn't sell you on the idea, which in turn means anything the film wishes to say has all of it's force pulled out of it. It also has absolutely no subtlety at all, smashing the screen with it's imagery over and over - the most subtle image in the whole thing is Fleck placing a mask in a bin (he's revealed his true face, geddit?!). I don't feel the allusions to John Wayne Gacy work either (the comedy club's name, and most obviously Fleck's Joker makeup. I actually came to like the makeup by the finale but I still wish it wasn't so obviously a nod to an actual monster). And all of the connections to Batman are horrible. They feel like veneers added to sell a studio on a project, having no impact on anything and arguably detrimental to it as they feel shoe horned in. And that probably comes to the main issue I have with the film and why I'm so torn on it. I can see this is actually a very good film with a wonderful perfomance. But its not the Joker. There's been dozens of takes on Batman's nemesis. He's been everything from a gangster with a comedy gimmick, to an anarchist terrorist, to a genuinely malevolent embodiment of evil, to an inversion of Batman, to a particularly cruel sadist mob boss. While all of these takes are very different, they have commonalities. He is smart, genuinely threatening, no matter how warped his viewpoint is. He is a nemesis. Arthur Fleck isn't that. Arthur Fleck is a pitiful figure. A Batman in this world wouldn't even bother to turn up to deal with Fleck, and there's no indication that he could become that nemesis. He's too broken, too pathetic, not maniacal, not an embodiment of chaos. He's a barely functioning mentally ill man who has snapped under the weight of the world. There's certainly been takes on the Joker that begin with a similar premise, but they don't conjure a character like Fleck. Fleck is impotent rage with a gun. The Joker is chaos, evil. This a very good, if flawed, film. It's just not a very good film about the Joker. 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vive_La_Villa Posted October 13, 2019 Share Posted October 13, 2019 2 hours ago, Chindie said: Saw Joker last night. Hmm. One of the more difficult films for me to rate I think. A film of 2 souls perhaps. Anywho, a brief synopsis... Arthur Fleck is a clown for hire in a 1980s Gotham. Arthur is a timid and beaten down man with mental problems. He has a condition that causes him to laugh uncontrollably, notably at moments of stress, but he also seems to be detached from the world - his colleagues find him creepy, he doesn't seem to relate to anyone, he has flights of fantasy. Gotham meanwhile is on the verge of societal turmoil. Arthur slowly descends into outright madness as the world around him starts to go mad itself, and he becomes a different man... I really am a bit torn with this, probably in a way that most people won't be. First, however, the good. It's a cracking performance from Phoenix. The role is one we've seen before from him in many ways, the detached loner with a psycho streak, but here it's amped up that little bit more. Arthur is literally nuts, and everything about him is awkward and strained. His movement is gawky, he contorts himself in pent up strained positions as if his mental anguish is extending out through his limbs, and of course he's extremely thin (though he also accentuates this with his posture and movement - he walks at times with his shoulder blades flexed out awkwardly, or is taking very shallow breaths to emphasise his ribs). Theres an eternal sadness in his face, even when hidden behind his clown makeup. And for all intents and purposes it's his movie - the cast is tiny and no role has more than a handful of lines besides Phoenix. It's pretty much a pure character study in that sense, everyone around Phoenix is a prop to bounce his character off. Thats not to say that anyone is bad, although equally I don't think they all knock it out of the park either - De Niro has a weird performance imo for instance, particularly in the finale where he is reading lines in a manner reminiscent of a school nativity play where the kid forgot his lines. It's beautifully shot and wears it's early Scorsese influence on it's sleeve - it echoes Taxi Driver and King of Comedy everywhere, literally. The homages are littered throughout, the look of the film, the way it's shot, the script borrows liberally from those films... But to good effect. Theres some wonderful images in this. And it has a great soundtrack, a tense grimy rumbling undertone punctuated by moments of serenity and odd segments of outright joy - the Glitter moment is excellent, only hurt by the fact that... well... it's a Gary Glitter song. The character of Arthur Fleck is a great creation too. And it's bloody funny at times too, even when it really shouldn't be. And it does have a message, one that isn't seen much in mainstream cinema (although even that is undermined by the logos that precede the movie). But... It's not perfect by any means. It feels woefully underwritten at times. Every character is a cardboard cutout besides Fleck, everyone Fleck meets is a prick, with a couple of notable exceptions who represent the other side of the cardboard. If you're charitable you can argue that theres a thematic justification for this, but personally I walked away thinking that actually, no, it's just not written very well in many respects. A significant undercurrent of the plot isn't developed or built upon at all, which harms it's message - we are told and shown that something is the way it is, and thats it, and that means that the movie doesn't sell you on the idea, which in turn means anything the film wishes to say has all of it's force pulled out of it. It also has absolutely no subtlety at all, smashing the screen with it's imagery over and over - the most subtle image in the whole thing is Fleck placing a mask in a bin (he's revealed his true face, geddit?!). I don't feel the allusions to John Wayne Gacy work either (the comedy club's name, and most obviously Fleck's Joker makeup. I actually came to like the makeup by the finale but I still wish it wasn't so obviously a nod to an actual monster). And all of the connections to Batman are horrible. They feel like veneers added to sell a studio on a project, having no impact on anything and arguably detrimental to it as they feel shoe horned in. And that probably comes to the main issue I have with the film and why I'm so torn on it. I can see this is actually a very good film with a wonderful perfomance. But its not the Joker. There's been dozens of takes on Batman's nemesis. He's been everything from a gangster with a comedy gimmick, to an anarchist terrorist, to a genuinely malevolent embodiment of evil, to an inversion of Batman, to a particularly cruel sadist mob boss. While all of these takes are very different, they have commonalities. He is smart, genuinely threatening, no matter how warped his viewpoint is. He is a nemesis. Arthur Fleck isn't that. Arthur Fleck is a pitiful figure. A Batman in this world wouldn't even bother to turn up to deal with Fleck, and there's no indication that he could become that nemesis. He's too broken, too pathetic, not maniacal, not an embodiment of chaos. He's a barely functioning mentally ill man who has snapped under the weight of the world. There's certainly been takes on the Joker that begin with a similar premise, but they don't conjure a character like Fleck. Fleck is impotent rage with a gun. The Joker is chaos, evil. This a very good, if flawed, film. It's just not a very good film about the Joker. Wow nice review. Are you a film critic?Because if you’re not you probably should be. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mole86 Posted October 13, 2019 Share Posted October 13, 2019 2 hours ago, Chindie said: This a very good, if flawed, film. It's just not a very good film about the Joker. Nail on the head for me, agree with everything you’ve written. The inclusion of the Waynes massively harmed the overall effectiveness of the film in my eyes, great performance and very well made though it may be. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demitri_C Posted October 13, 2019 Share Posted October 13, 2019 (edited) 3 hours ago, Chindie said: Saw Joker last night. Hmm. One of the more difficult films for me to rate I think. A film of 2 souls perhaps. Anywho, a brief synopsis... Arthur Fleck is a clown for hire in a 1980s Gotham. Arthur is a timid and beaten down man with mental problems. He has a condition that causes him to laugh uncontrollably, notably at moments of stress, but he also seems to be detached from the world - his colleagues find him creepy, he doesn't seem to relate to anyone, he has flights of fantasy. Gotham meanwhile is on the verge of societal turmoil. Arthur slowly descends into outright madness as the world around him starts to go mad itself, and he becomes a different man... I really am a bit torn with this, probably in a way that most people won't be. First, however, the good. It's a cracking performance from Phoenix. The role is one we've seen before from him in many ways, the detached loner with a psycho streak, but here it's amped up that little bit more. Arthur is literally nuts, and everything about him is awkward and strained. His movement is gawky, he contorts himself in pent up strained positions as if his mental anguish is extending out through his limbs, and of course he's extremely thin (though he also accentuates this with his posture and movement - he walks at times with his shoulder blades flexed out awkwardly, or is taking very shallow breaths to emphasise his ribs). Theres an eternal sadness in his face, even when hidden behind his clown makeup. And for all intents and purposes it's his movie - the cast is tiny and no role has more than a handful of lines besides Phoenix. It's pretty much a pure character study in that sense, everyone around Phoenix is a prop to bounce his character off. Thats not to say that anyone is bad, although equally I don't think they all knock it out of the park either - De Niro has a weird performance imo for instance, particularly in the finale where he is reading lines in a manner reminiscent of a school nativity play where the kid forgot his lines. It's beautifully shot and wears it's early Scorsese influence on it's sleeve - it echoes Taxi Driver and King of Comedy everywhere, literally. The homages are littered throughout, the look of the film, the way it's shot, the script borrows liberally from those films... But to good effect. Theres some wonderful images in this. And it has a great soundtrack, a tense grimy rumbling undertone punctuated by moments of serenity and odd segments of outright joy - the Glitter moment is excellent, only hurt by the fact that... well... it's a Gary Glitter song. The character of Arthur Fleck is a great creation too. And it's bloody funny at times too, even when it really shouldn't be. And it does have a message, one that isn't seen much in mainstream cinema (although even that is undermined by the logos that precede the movie). But... It's not perfect by any means. It feels woefully underwritten at times. Every character is a cardboard cutout besides Fleck, everyone Fleck meets is a prick, with a couple of notable exceptions who represent the other side of the cardboard. If you're charitable you can argue that theres a thematic justification for this, but personally I walked away thinking that actually, no, it's just not written very well in many respects. A significant undercurrent of the plot isn't developed or built upon at all, which harms it's message - we are told and shown that something is the way it is, and thats it, and that means that the movie doesn't sell you on the idea, which in turn means anything the film wishes to say has all of it's force pulled out of it. It also has absolutely no subtlety at all, smashing the screen with it's imagery over and over - the most subtle image in the whole thing is Fleck placing a mask in a bin (he's revealed his true face, geddit?!). I don't feel the allusions to John Wayne Gacy work either (the comedy club's name, and most obviously Fleck's Joker makeup. I actually came to like the makeup by the finale but I still wish it wasn't so obviously a nod to an actual monster). And all of the connections to Batman are horrible. They feel like veneers added to sell a studio on a project, having no impact on anything and arguably detrimental to it as they feel shoe horned in. And that probably comes to the main issue I have with the film and why I'm so torn on it. I can see this is actually a very good film with a wonderful perfomance. But its not the Joker. There's been dozens of takes on Batman's nemesis. He's been everything from a gangster with a comedy gimmick, to an anarchist terrorist, to a genuinely malevolent embodiment of evil, to an inversion of Batman, to a particularly cruel sadist mob boss. While all of these takes are very different, they have commonalities. He is smart, genuinely threatening, no matter how warped his viewpoint is. He is a nemesis. Arthur Fleck isn't that. Arthur Fleck is a pitiful figure. A Batman in this world wouldn't even bother to turn up to deal with Fleck, and there's no indication that he could become that nemesis. He's too broken, too pathetic, not maniacal, not an embodiment of chaos. He's a barely functioning mentally ill man who has snapped under the weight of the world. There's certainly been takes on the Joker that begin with a similar premise, but they don't conjure a character like Fleck. Fleck is impotent rage with a gun. The Joker is chaos, evil. This a very good, if flawed, film. It's just not a very good film about the Joker. Only thing I would perhaps argue is that it's showing how he became the joker. He wasn't actually the joker we know when the film ended. He was clearly insane by the end to the movie which would lead to the serial and fiend joker we know Edited October 13, 2019 by Demitri_C 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AVFCDAN Posted October 13, 2019 Share Posted October 13, 2019 El Camino is pretty good nothing more or less really. Spoiler Think I would have preferred it to start where this one ended ironically. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted October 13, 2019 VT Supporter Share Posted October 13, 2019 1 hour ago, Demitri_C said: Only thing I would perhaps argue is that it's showing how he became the joker. He wasn't actually the joker we know when the film ended. He was clearly insane by the end to the movie which would lead to the serial and fiend joker we know I'd accept that, but there's not any indication in the film that Arthur has that in him. He's pathetic from titles to credits. Even in his ultimate origin, where he finally goes over into his Joker persona, he's still pitiful - Spoiler he **** up his grand entrance and reveal, he's outdone on every front by the talkshow host and his ultimate act is to lash out in rage. His greatest moment is his being a symbol. That's just not the Joker. We get the origin of a different kind of character here. To have this character become THE Joker would require the character to become something completely different, which is a leap in character development, to say the least. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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