El Zen Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 What exactly is the big difference between trade Unions...? Are you being serious...? The point that your suggesting there is little difference between trade Union and Banks is comedy gold it really is...! I will give you a clue. One organisation has helped ruin the global economy which has caused mass record levels of unemployment, University fee increases, Pension increases, closures of youth clubs and libraries ect ect. The other helps defend you in your work place and fights for better working rights for million in the country. Which ONE organisation are you talking about? Could you perhaps attempt to consider the good that the banking industry has done? Trade unions do many good things as well - perhaps more good than the banking industry. I won't make myself judge of that. Trade unions still only represent a little over 20 per cent of Britain's working population, though. And sometimes, just sometimes, trade unions can be a little uncooperative, placing their own agendas over the welfare of the nation - as is their wont. The point being, neither of whom should have that level of influence over political decisions. The original point, however, was that political influence, be it from bankers or trade unions, does not equate ownership or total control. The point I was trying to make is these cuts are partly Ideological. Irrespective of the time difference debt is debt. How much were we in debt after the war and when did Britain introduce the NHS....? Some cuts may be ideological. That does not mean that some cuts aren't still necessary. Debt is certainly debt, but debt is not defecit. Debt is a possible outcome of deficit. So the question remains: how long can you continue to run a (massive) budget defecit? Until your debt is so big you can no longer service it? And you cannot ignore the time difference, because we are talking about deficit not debt. You can run a (big) deficit and put yourself in (a lot of) debt when there is plenty of room for revenue increase. The potential for revenue increase in post war Britain was gigantic and practically limitless. I would not bet my savings (granting opportunity for jokes about the banking industry doing that for me) that the same is true for Britain's economic future today. When did I say that. All I want is fairness and equality for the masses and not the minority. To what extent and what are you going to about it? That is an honest question. I am very open to ideas of how fairness and equality can be achieved. I'm all for it, you see (depening on the definitions of fairness of equality, obviously). Would you want the following figures to be higher lower or stay the same “ 70% of the worlds wealth to be owned by 1% of the worlds population. I don't disagree with you at all. What should we do about it and are those numbers relevant for Britain? That's not me being nationalistic (why should I be nationalistic on behalf of Britain anyway?), I'm just trying to limit the scope of the discussion. Ditto. What question? Worry about your self Jeeves. It wasn't a rhetorical question meant to say "tough luck, suck it up". I hardly make Carlos Tevez-like money anyway. I'm seriously curious as to how you would limit footballers' wages. If your taking my quote as literally set in stone, then I suggest you take them with a pinch of salt. So we agree Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Zen Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 We also need risks to actually, you know, carry risk. Certainly agree. Enter: better regulation. If you believe in capitalism you'd be able to look around and see we don't live in a capitalist society. Well. even old Adam Smith would allow for some state intervention in a capitalist society. Defining capitalism is less interesting than discussing the economic crisis though, so I'll refrain from further comment. Should we never bail out banks? Should we have bailed out all the banks that we did bail out? I'll put myself slightly on the fence. I just don't know enough about the consequences of letting them fail. I'm partial to erring on the side of caution but I can see the point being made about bail outs removing the actual element of risk and the dangers that follow from that. It would have made for one heck of an interesting experiment if it were possible! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Zen Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 My point, therefore, was that for some people it is not a decent place to live. I fail to see how that is in any way controversial. It is not. And I never really disagreed with it, mate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Zen Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 "Agree with everything but the final part. Pensions have to change as people are living longer than when the current retirement age was set. Its painful but with an ageing population we need to work longer". If we can spend 40 million a day in Libiya setting fire to it. Terrible example. Think what you will of the military operation in Libya but it is a one off cost. Pensions are a long term budget commitment. On my current budget I could probably go on an expensive holiday and live like a king for a week or so. It would put a dent in my savings but it doesn't hurt me long term. If I on the other hand sign a lease on a flat and a rental car that commits me to spending a certain amount of money a month over the next fifteen years I'll be **** when my savings run out, unless I see a drastic increase in my personal income. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genie Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 "Agree with everything but the final part. Pensions have to change as people are living longer than when the current retirement age was set. Its painful but with an ageing population we need to work longer". If we can spend 40 million a day in Libiya setting fire to it. Terrible example. Think what you will of the military operation in Libya but it is a one off cost. Pensions are a long term budget commitment. Agreed, terrible example... and it isn't anything like £40,000,000 a day. Now who is being sucked in by the hype Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genie Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 In capitalism there's no such thing as being too big to fail, if you **** up then that's it, you're done. It's that risk that lets the system grow and evolve. When the risk isn't there the market stagnates and innovation disappears and exploitation appears in its place. This, bang on the button, cartels flourish. The more i read about our system the more it seems to be wrong. "The coporation of the city of London", 9000 residents and an MP.....how does that work? Their own police force, 3 private schools....... London weighting, another artificial method to support a system thats not working, ie if you cant afford to work in London then either raise your prices or don't work there. The power companies have a monopoly. We have to pay for our water that drops from the skys ffs. Big business has the biggest lobby of any of our sectors of society. The unions represent most of the countries working population and any lobbying power they have is frowned upon by the press........big business. The public sector are now being criticised for fighting to keep what they have had for years, they are not changing the playing field, the government are, yet the unions get the stick, why? Agree with everything but the final part. Pensions have to change as people are living longer than when the current retirement age was set. Its painful but with an ageing population we need to work longer. We already work longer than most of the rest of Europe. And how well exactly are Europe doing financially at the moment? Fact is when the retirement age was set people were dieing much younger than now. Its quite simple. If people are living much longer then an extra couple of years worth of contributions is necessary. I hate this mentallity of taking money of the few who managed to make themselves serious wealth. Thats theirs and they earn't it. If you don't like how they earn't it then this needs to be addressed for the future. Don't hate the player, hate the game Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 notice my original questions have not been answered...!You talk about fairness and equality for all and expect serious responses when you end a post "UP YOUR BUM YOU TORY SCUM...!" Yeah nice values Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drat01 Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 I see the true Tory values were shown again at the weekend with the disclosure of various of them finding it very funny to sing songs re the Nazi's killing Jews Tory right wing scum ...One officer claimed that members regularly sang a song which includes the words: “Dashing through the Reich…killing lots of kike (Jews).”... Apparently this is not a one off event either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LondonLax Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 The rumour is that Berlusconi may have resigned so some good might have come of this after all Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 I see the true Tory values were shown again at the weekend with the disclosure of various of them finding it very funny to sing songs re the Nazi's killing Jews Tory right wing scum ...One officer claimed that members regularly sang a song which includes the words: “Dashing through the Reich…killing lots of kike (Jews).”... Apparently this is not a one off event either. So much are they "true Tory values" as you put it that people are resigning and this has been condemed by actual Tories. You would think if they were true values then none of that would have happened would you. Oh and for selectivelye quoting Ian and missing more substantive points let me fill some in for you from that same article Joe Cooke, who was president of OUCA during this year’s spring term, is one of the senior members who have decided to resign..... “I am committed to the Conservative Party but this association has come to represent everything we’re supposed to stand against,” he added..... The students’ antics are a far cry from the days when the likes of Margaret Thatcher, Edward Heath and Theresa May were members..... Mr Cooke, 21, who is a former comprehensive school pupil from Barnsley, added that when he spoke at meetings after he first joined the Association “I was ridiculed for my accent…they would say things like ‘ee bah gum’ and create a culture of intimidation”..... James Lawson, a student at St Edmund Hall college and president of OUCA, said: “I haven't seen the video yet and we are investigating to find out whether this was a member of the Association. "If it turns out this person is a member we will take immediate action to expel them from the Association. Racism has no place in the Association or our society.” OUCA is the biggest single organisation within Conservative Future, the body for young Tories which is run from the party’s London headquarters. A spokesman for the Conservative Party said: “Racism of any kind has absolutely no place in the Conservative Party, and we will look into any allegation against a party member as a matter of urgency.” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted November 7, 2011 Moderator Share Posted November 7, 2011 I hate this mentallity of taking money of the few who managed to make themselves serious wealth. Thats theirs and they earn't it. Mostly they didn't actually earn it - they were paid it, but mostly didn't merit it. They effectively, many of them, made themselves seriously wealthy through things like Luck, exploitation, borderline illegality, avoidance of taxes, and climbing all over other people. Not all of them, but many. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 Apparently this is not a one off event either. so it would seem .... from 2009 The Labour Party has become embroiled in a race row after a prospective female councillor was told she was 'too white and Jewish' to be selected. Mrs Cohen had applied to stand as a Labour councillor for the Birmingham ward of East Handsworth and Lozells Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 I hate this mentallity of taking money of the few who managed to make themselves serious wealth. Thats theirs and they earn't it. Mostly they didn't actually earn it - they were paid it, but mostly didn't merit it. They effectively, many of them, made themselves seriously wealthy through things like Luck, exploitation, borderline illegality, avoidance of taxes, and climbing all over other people. Not all of them, but many. but then should the ones that did earn it then but penalised and rounded on ? I've said before some people borrow money to setup a business , the use their home as collateral , the risk is all theirs .. the sleepless nights, the long hours and so on .....some do go on and lose it all and some do go on and make a success of themselves They will have created jobs in the community , they will still have paid vast amounts in tax and I say good luck to them and they should be entitled to pay themselves as much as they want Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Risso Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 I hate this mentallity of taking money of the few who managed to make themselves serious wealth. Thats theirs and they earn't it. Mostly they didn't actually earn it - they were paid it, but mostly didn't merit it. They effectively, many of them, made themselves seriously wealthy through things like Luck, exploitation, borderline illegality, avoidance of taxes, and climbing all over other people. Not all of them, but many. That's quite a big generalisation there Pete. Lots of people have made big money by selling products/services that people like/need, and doing it either before or better than anybody else. Of course there are examples of the people you describe, but then there are also lots of people who have made money by taking a chance, employing people and increasing the wealth of the ecnomy as a whole. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 couldn't have put it better myself Risso :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colhint Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 The Labour Party has become embroiled in a race row after a prospective female councillor was told she was 'too white and Jewish' to be selected. Mrs Cohen had applied to stand as a Labour councillor for the Birmingham ward of East Handsworth and Lozells Oh come on now Tony, poor effort. You could have put a tabloid spin on that to mislead people into believing all labour supporters are racist and anti-semitic based on an isolated case Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted November 7, 2011 Moderator Share Posted November 7, 2011 I hate this mentallity of taking money of the few who managed to make themselves serious wealth. Thats theirs and they earn't it. Mostly they didn't actually earn it - they were paid it, but mostly didn't merit it. They effectively, many of them, made themselves seriously wealthy through things like Luck, exploitation, borderline illegality, avoidance of taxes, and climbing all over other people. Not all of them, but many. but then should the ones that did earn it then but penalised and rounded on ? Penalised? Rounded on? - we're talking about a taxation system, not an emotional or physical attack. We're talking about fairness, merit and such like. Did Sheiks, Oligarchs, Hedge fund people, Bankers, and the like earn their wealth?. How is it that the earnings of the top people went up 49% last year - did the stock value or performance of their companies reflect this level of increase? Did it heck. Someone who builds up a family firm, or small business no doubt works hard, provides a few peple with jobs and so on. Good on 'em. But they won't be paying themselves multi million bonuses, will they? and if they are, then yes, taxation should catch much of that excess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kidlewis Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 I see the true Tory values were shown again at the weekend with the disclosure of various of them finding it very funny to sing songs re the Nazi's killing Jews Tory right wing scum ...One officer claimed that members regularly sang a song which includes the words: “Dashing through the Reich…killing lots of kike (Jews).”... Apparently this is not a one off event either. So much are they "true Tory values" as you put it that people are resigning and this has been condemed by actual Tories. You would think if they were true values then none of that would have happened would you. Oh and for selectivelye quoting Ian and missing more substantive points let me fill some in for you from that same article Joe Cooke, who was president of OUCA during this year’s spring term, is one of the senior members who have decided to resign..... “I am committed to the Conservative Party but this association has come to represent everything we’re supposed to stand against,” he added..... The students’ antics are a far cry from the days when the likes of Margaret Thatcher, Edward Heath and Theresa May were members..... Mr Cooke, 21, who is a former comprehensive school pupil from Barnsley, added that when he spoke at meetings after he first joined the Association “I was ridiculed for my accent…they would say things like ‘ee bah gum’ and create a culture of intimidation”..... James Lawson, a student at St Edmund Hall college and president of OUCA, said: “I haven't seen the video yet and we are investigating to find out whether this was a member of the Association. "If it turns out this person is a member we will take immediate action to expel them from the Association. Racism has no place in the Association or our society.” OUCA is the biggest single organisation within Conservative Future, the body for young Tories which is run from the party’s London headquarters. A spokesman for the Conservative Party said: “Racism of any kind has absolutely no place in the Conservative Party, and we will look into any allegation against a party member as a matter of urgency.” you won't want to watch this piece of comedy then Hitler Rap Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyjsg Posted November 7, 2011 VT Supporter Share Posted November 7, 2011 taxation should catch much of that excess. Surely it does? 50% of it when I last looked at the tax rules. Personally I think we are taxed too much. I earn nowhere near the kind of money to hit 50% but the 40% tax threshold isnt that high, so when I work an extra 40 hours a week for my 2nd job I have to give 40% of it away, when other get money for doing nothing, how is that fair? Also whoever mentioned about scrapping London waiting quite obviously lives nowhere near London and really has no grasp of the real world. I rent a very small house in the suburbs and that costs £1200 a month and another 250 a month for train, the money starts to go quickly. Yes you can get cheaper if you want to live in an area like Camberwell. Not exactly the nicest place in the world and especially distressing to my other half who was hassled and grabbed by local lads once a week. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 The Labour Party has become embroiled in a race row after a prospective female councillor was told she was 'too white and Jewish' to be selected. Mrs Cohen had applied to stand as a Labour councillor for the Birmingham ward of East Handsworth and Lozells Oh come on now Tony, poor effort. You could have put a tabloid spin on that to mislead people into believing all labour supporters are racist and anti-semitic based on an isolated caseTo be fair to Tony he couldn't have done that. If he did then he would not have been true to his Tory Values, he would have been behaving like a Labour supporter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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