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economic situation is dire


ianrobo1
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With growth this month being .5% does that mean we are not likely to have another recession...?

An "official" recession is two consecutive quarters of decline. So while it's obviously very little to get excited about, it's not a recession. What happens in the next few quarters, who knows. I heard varying reports yesterday following the growth figures, some predicting similar growth for the next two, some predicting a return to recession.

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Greece going for a referendum on the bailout deal .. you couldn't make it up really could you ..

The result of the enforced austerity on Greece imposed by the EC, ECB and IMF will 'ensure' that by 2020 Greece returns to a debt versus GDP ratio of 2007/08 - which was unsustainable even then at 120% of GDP.

Bottom line, the Greeks are being broken on the wheel to support the balance sheets of EU banks and the vanity (and pensions) of EU bureaucrats. Unsurprisingly there isn't much in the UK press about it, but Greece is approaching the stage of serious civil conflict and the only realistic option they have is to default, exit the Euro, devalue and try to recover. The idea that the Greek people will vote for the ruination of their entire society to support the EU political project is pure fantasy.

Brussels knows this which is why they are so furious that the Greek government are seeking a mandate from their people, but from Papandreou's perspective it's safer to piss off a few over-mighty Brussels based bell ends than end up swinging from a lamp post with the army back in charge.

Once Greece exits the other dominos will fall quicky and by virtue of the amount of CDS reinsurance through the City of London we'll be screwed too, whatever the government in Westminster does.

The Greek people may well vote for the package. There is 70% support with the Greek people for staying in the Euro. If the question is put to them along the lines of "Would you like to keep the Euro and accept the latest bailout or reject it, default and go back to the Drachma" then it may well pass.

Having said that, apparently you need a three fifths majority to call a referendum so it is very unlikely that it will actually happen at all.

Whether it goes ahead or not and what the answer would be if it does is less informative, I believe, than the attitude of European politicians (and what are referred to as 'the markets') to the suggestion that people might actually be asked for their opinion.

Mmmm, one could argue that the people were asked for their opinion when they elected that government to office in Greece in the first instance. Do we elect our representatives to be advocates or delegates ? Should every decision that a government make go back to the people for ratification ? Why then bother to elect a government ? (I know that is a question many pose on here anyway!)

Not saying I agree with the attitude you highlight above by the way, just playing devils advocate. Also not saying I do not agree with a country holding a referendum , in the right circumstances (and this may be them) they are much needed IMO.

For those you reference above though it may not be directed against people being asked their opinion more against the fact that this deal (and the merits or otherwise can be debated at length) has been negotiated after a long round of talks to try and stabilise a bad economic situation and they may not want that jeopardised by prevarication at late stage

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Mmmm, one could argue that the people were asked for their opinion when they elected that government to office in Greece in the first instance. Do we elect our representatives to be advocates or delegates ? Should every decision that a government make go back to the people for ratification ? Why then bother to elect a government ? (I know that is a question many pose on here anyway!)

Not saying I agree with the attitude you highlight above by the way, just playing devils advocate. Also not saying I do not agree with a country holding a referendum , in the right circumstances (and this may be them) they are much needed IMO.

For those you reference above though it may not be directed against people being asked their opinion more against the fact that this deal (and the merits or otherwise can be debated at length) has been negotiated after a long round of talks to try and stabilise a bad economic situation and they may not want that jeopardised by prevarication at late stage

When it seems that this agreement apparently involves the governing of Greece being effectively taken over by non-greeks (or so the comment has gone on some political discussions I have seen/heard about it) then I think this is not a case that falls in to the normal discussion about repreentative democracy. It may well be a discussion about representative democracy but on a whole new level.

I did see the BBC report earlier that some wires were carrying something about Papandreou claiming that he informed Merkel and Sarko of his intention in that meeting last week - though I haven't heard them repeat it and they may have got it arse about face.

We can have detailed discussions about the relative merits and so on of representative democracy and direct democracy and so on but, ulitmately, if politicians are going to attempt to keep up the sham of being democrats then they ought to be better at disguising their distaste of having to succumb to democratic processes (be they elections, referenda or whatever).

Thinking about this further, I believe this may actually need the explicit consent of the Greek people in order to legitimize what people have been suggesting is a de facto ceding of the governing of Greece to those who are not representatives of the Greek people.

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Thinking about this further, I believe this may actually need the explicit consent of the Greek people in order to legitimize what people have been suggesting is a de facto ceding of the governing of Greece to those who are not representatives of the Greek people.

It's the EU. That's what it does.

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UK economy grew by 0.5% in the three months to the end of September - slightly above expectations.

Greece going for a referendum on the bailout deal .. you couldn't make it up really could you ..

and then the economic expert bloke on radio today said forget about Greece Italy is in far far more trouble

happy days ahead it would seem

What a flawed way of looking at that.

As many have commented this morning in the media from the awful previous quarter, laughably attributed to the Royal Wedding etc, the following quarter was always going to seem better.

Hang on so on the one hand using the Royal wedding is laughable but then on the other

The reality is that

James Knightley, at ING Financial Markets, said: "While the Q3 growth rate looks respectable, it is important to remember that this follows a Q2 figure depressed by having fewer working days because of the royal wedding and supply disruptions caused by the Japan

"So for the economy to have only grown 0.5% in Q3 suggests the underlying picture remains weak," Mr Knightley said.

It is Ok to use it to show that Q2 was depressed by the Royal wedding and that that means Q3 is not very good?

How does that work then ?

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It's the EU. That's what it does.

Hmm, I think there's a difference between the normal EU processes (and problems if you're not a fan) and The Provident coming in to your own home and telling you what you're going to be having for supper (and instructing you how to cook it).

Seems like Papandreou is on his way to resign so does this leave Greece on the road to snap elections (which would surely end up being asking the Greek people to support or not support the agreement made last week)?

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Seems like Papandreou is on his way to resign so does this leave Greece on the road to snap elections (which would surely end up being asking the Greek people to support or not support the agreement made last week)?

Looks like the opposition have dropped all calls for an election instead favouring some sort of coalition so the EU mandate can be enforced without any regard to the will of the Greek people. It really wouldn't surprise me if the whole situation in Greece descended into a full scale civil war!

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Seems like Papandreou is on his way to resign so does this leave Greece on the road to snap elections (which would surely end up being asking the Greek people to support or not support the agreement made last week)?

Looks like the opposition have dropped all calls for an election instead favouring some sort of coalition so the EU mandate can be enforced without any regard to the will of the Greek people. It really wouldn't surprise me if the whole situation in Greece descended into a full scale civil war!

The European Commission have gone from saying that Greece could not under circumstances leave the Euro, to now threatening that if they do - putting them in the same position as say Denmark the UK or 8 other EU members - they will also be ejected from the EU itself!!

The mask has finally slipped and the true nature of the bullying, anti-democratic, authoritarian and neo-fascist EU machine is being fully revealed.

I wonder why no one saw this coming...

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Seems like Papandreou is on his way to resign so does this leave Greece on the road to snap elections (which would surely end up being asking the Greek people to support or not support the agreement made last week)?

Looks like the opposition have dropped all calls for an election instead favouring some sort of coalition so the EU mandate can be enforced without any regard to the will of the Greek people. It really wouldn't surprise me if the whole situation in Greece descended into a full scale civil war!

The European Commission have gone from saying that Greece could not under circumstances leave the Euro, to now threatening that if they do - putting them in the same position as say Denmark the UK or 8 other EU members - they will also be ejected from the EU itself!!

The mask has finally slipped and the true nature of the bullying, anti-democratic, authoritarian and neo-fascist EU machine is being fully revealed.

I wonder why no one saw this coming...

I think that most did...

"Ein Volk, ein Reich, ein Fuhrer"

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Seems like Papandreou is on his way to resign so does this leave Greece on the road to snap elections (which would surely end up being asking the Greek people to support or not support the agreement made last week)?

Looks like the opposition have dropped all calls for an election instead favouring some sort of coalition so the EU mandate can be enforced without any regard to the will of the Greek people. It really wouldn't surprise me if the whole situation in Greece descended into a full scale civil war!

The European Commission have gone from saying that Greece could not under circumstances leave the Euro, to now threatening that if they do - putting them in the same position as say Denmark the UK or 8 other EU members - they will also be ejected from the EU itself!!

The mask has finally slipped and the true nature of the bullying, anti-democratic, authoritarian and neo-fascist EU machine is being fully revealed.

I wonder why no one saw this coming...

I think that most did...

"Ein Volk, ein Reich, ein Fuhrer"

What exactly are you trying to imply there?

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UKIP supporters now throwing their dummies out - hilarious to watch really. They just don;t know who / what to support.

As for the lack of growth in the UK, it seems that Dave continues to blame anyone and everyone but himself and his Bullingdon buddies while more and more evidence oozes out about how this Gvmt is rewarding companies that have "conveniently" supported the Tory party with large donations.

Interesting also that his typical allies in places like the Torygraph are obviously getting sick of him. See the article about how Cameron's policies are hitting Women in particular link

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UKIP supporters now throwing their dummies out - hilarious to watch really. They just don;t know who / what to support.

As for the lack of growth in the UK, it seems that Dave continues to blame anyone and everyone but himself and his Bullingdon buddies while more and more evidence oozes out about how this Gvmt is rewarding companies that have "conveniently" supported the Tory party with large donations.

Interesting also that his typical allies in places like the Torygraph are obviously getting sick of him. See the article about how Cameron's policies are hitting Women in particular link

Does this really surprise anyone....?

What is surprising is that 10 million people vote Tory.

The party of the rich, inequality and unfairness supported by the middles classes and working classes...?!!!!

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