MaVilla Posted June 3 Posted June 3 Not sure if there is a similar thread elsewhere, if there is, please feel free to merge it....... Anyway. Does anyone else feel that we missed a big opportunity in 2011 by voting against proportional representation? (as a country). Do you think the general public would be more pro proportional representation in 2024?, especially considering the mess that the UK has been in over the last 15-30 years. If most people knew that their individual vote would go towards proportional representation, and you arent stuck with the main two parties, im guessing many people might be interested in that now?, unless you are a die hard labour/tory voter who would vote for them regardless of whether they are useless or not.
markavfc40 Posted June 3 Posted June 3 13 minutes ago, MaVilla said: especially considering the mess that the UK has been in over the last 15-30 years I am not sure how you have bunched the last 15 years in with the 15 years before that. For a decade plus from 1997 public services and your average Joes lot improved immensely. The last 14 years those gains have been decimated and some. 1
Davkaus Posted June 3 Posted June 3 (edited) It wasn't a vote on PR, alternate vote is a better system than fptp, but just grants an individual candidate in a constituency with more support, it doesn't aim to deliver proportional representation and would have the same problem for parties like ukip or the greens with millions of voters spread (reasonably) evenly throughout the country delivering almost no seats As for how the country would feel about it now, part of me hopes that Reform end up with 15-18% of the vote and get one or two seats maximum, to see if Farage can kick up enough interest to fuel a desire for change, but what I really think people want is less politics and no more bloody referendums Edited June 3 by Davkaus 2
bickster Posted June 4 Moderator Posted June 4 AV was better than what we have but not by much Clegg just wanted Cameron's babies, he was a complete fool 2
Danwichmann Posted June 4 Posted June 4 I voted yes for AV as it would have been somewhat better than FPTP, and I didn't want to vote 'no' that would be interpreted as a vote for FPTP. But I think we desperately need full PR, and ideally a full overhaul of the whole system. Get rid of the monarchy, the House of Lords and replace it all with something that's actually democratic and codified, not based on convention and gentleman's understandings. A quick look at the polls and comparison of the vote share to number of seats shows any right minded person that what we have does not represent what people want to vote for. 3
mjmooney Posted June 4 VT Supporter Posted June 4 1 hour ago, Danwichmann said: Ideally a full overhaul of the whole system. Get rid of the monarchy, the House of Lords and replace it all with something that's actually democratic and codified, not based on convention and gentleman's understandings. Agreed, but... Not. A. Chance.
Danwichmann Posted June 4 Posted June 4 5 minutes ago, mjmooney said: Agreed, but... Not. A. Chance. Yes, I'll settle for something that's just a little bit more democratic than what we have, because the rest isn't happening in my lifetime.
Jon Posted June 4 Posted June 4 It's certainly not going to happen under a Labour government with a massive majority. It should, but it won't. 3
bickster Posted June 4 Moderator Posted June 4 2 hours ago, Danwichmann said: I voted yes for AV as it would have been somewhat better than FPTP, and I didn't want to vote 'no' that would be interpreted as a vote for FPTP. But I think we desperately need full PR, and ideally a full overhaul of the whole system. Get rid of the monarchy, the House of Lords and replace it all with something that's actually democratic and codified, not based on convention and gentleman's understandings. A quick look at the polls and comparison of the vote share to number of seats shows any right minded person that what we have does not represent what people want to vote for. And the polls only look like that BECAUSE of FPTP. FPTP polarises views to be a battle between the top two parties, it's like being a football supporter and only really having the choice of supporting Man City or Arsenal, forever, from this point forward 2
Mandy Lifeboats Posted June 4 Posted June 4 I strongly oppose proportionate representation. We have some really nasty and dishonest people in politics who win 1 or 2% of the national vote. Presently they get no seats in Parliament. Under proportionate representation these smaller parties often become crucial to deciding who becomes the government. So they often manage to get idiotic policies through as part of the bargain. I don't want to see extremists having any say in running this country. Whether that be National Front, English Defence League, Hamas UK, Just Stop Oil etc. 2
Mandy Lifeboats Posted June 4 Posted June 4 There's plenty we could do instead..... Break the bond between the church and the state. Replace the House Of Lords. Count Binface for President
LondonLax Posted June 4 Posted June 4 2 minutes ago, Mandy Lifeboats said: I strongly oppose proportionate representation. We have some really nasty and dishonest people in politics who win 1 or 2% of the national vote. Presently they get no seats in Parliament. Under proportionate representation these smaller parties often become crucial to deciding who becomes the government. So they often manage to get idiotic policies through as part of the bargain. I don't want to see extremists having any say in running this country. Whether that be National Front, English Defence League, Hamas UK, Just Stop Oil etc. Except that you have those idiots in seats now, they are just the nutty fringe of the two main parties. They often get their way as well, look at Brexit, a nutty fringe of the Tory party made a Brexit referendum a condition of their continued support. Under PR they would be operating under two different banners from each other but the end result may well be similar I think the differences between PR / FPTP and other options in between are a bit over stated really. People frustrated with politics have an idea that it would all be much better under a different system but I think that is not so clear cut.
Mr_Dogg Posted June 4 Posted June 4 10 hours ago, Davkaus said: It wasn't a vote on PR, alternate vote is a better system than fptp, but just grants an individual candidate in a constituency with more support, it doesn't aim to deliver proportional representation and would have the same problem for parties like ukip or the greens with millions of voters spread (reasonably) evenly throughout the country delivering almost no seats As for how the country would feel about it now, part of me hopes that Reform end up with 15-18% of the vote and get one or two seats maximum, to see if Farage can kick up enough interest to fuel a desire for change, but what I really think people want is less politics and no more bloody referendums Hasn't the UK had 3 referendums ever?
Davkaus Posted June 4 Posted June 4 1 minute ago, Mr_Dogg said: Hasn't the UK had 3 referendums ever? Do you think people will be enthusiastic about another one?
Seat68 Posted June 4 Posted June 4 21 minutes ago, Mandy Lifeboats said: I strongly oppose proportionate representation. We have some really nasty and dishonest people in politics who win 1 or 2% of the national vote. Presently they get no seats in Parliament. Under proportionate representation these smaller parties often become crucial to deciding who becomes the government. So they often manage to get idiotic policies through as part of the bargain. I don't want to see extremists having any say in running this country. Whether that be National Front, English Defence League, Hamas UK, Just Stop Oil etc. I could have written this. I agree with every word 1
Danwichmann Posted June 4 Posted June 4 1 hour ago, bickster said: And the polls only look like that BECAUSE of FPTP. FPTP polarises views to be a battle between the top two parties, it's like being a football supporter and only really having the choice of supporting Man City or Arsenal, forever, from this point forward Absolutely agree. That the Greens or Reform can pick up 10%ish of the vote each despite having no chance of winning in no seats suggests that they could get a lot more votes if they were actually going to matter. 1
Popular Post cyrusr Posted June 4 VT Supporter Popular Post Posted June 4 (edited) https://www.electoral-reform.org.uk/latest-news-and-research/publications/lessons-not-learnt-the-2015-2017-2019-general-elections/ So in this is sets outs what the outcomes would be in the last 3 general elections if they were done under different forms of proportionate representation (Party List PR, Alternative Vote, Single Transferable Vote, Additional Member System) although I am not sure why they do different methods for each election. The bar charts didn't copy correctly but here is the data instead: - Seat projections under different voting systems, General election 2015 (Great Britain) Party FPTP STV AV List PR Conservative 331 276 337 242 Labour 232 236 227 208 SNP 56 34 54 30 Lib Dem 8 26 9 47 Plaid Cymru 3 3 3 5 UKIP 1 54 1 80 Green Party 1 3 1 20 Total 632 632 632 632 In short, it would have unlikely had a massive impact on 2015 election (either Tories outright or in coalition with UKIP) so that would have likely led to Brexit vote anyway. Seat projections under different voting systems, General election 2017 (Great Britain) Party FPTP STV AMS AV Conservative 317 282 274 304 Labour 262 297 274 286 SNP 35 18 21 27 Lib Dem 12 29 39 11 Plaid Cymru 4 3 4 2 Green Party 1 1 8 1 UKIP 0 1 11 0 Total 631 631 631 631 In 2017, in all of the PR options, it would have likely led to some combination of Labour/Lib Dem/SNP coalition and likely change the future as to how Brexit was dealt with. Seat projections under different voting systems, General election 2019 (Great Britain) Party FPTP STV AMS List PR Conservative 365 312 284 288 Labour 203 221 188 216 SNP 48 30 26 28 Lib Dem 11 59 79 70 Plaid Cymru 4 5 5 4 Green Party 1 2 38 12 Brexit Party 0 3 12 11 Others 0 0 0 3 Total 632 632 632 632 In 2019 again both the Party List and Alternative Members system would lead to coalitions of Labour/Lib Dem/SNP/Greens. With the Single Transferrable Vote it might be possible for Tory/UKIP/DUP but would be the tiniest of margins. The moral of the story seems to be with PR, we would almost certainly taken a very different course with Brexit, even if we would likely still had to face the vote anyway. For those worried about the voice of Farage et al being given in parliament; well the media gives them that voice without accountability which to me is worse. If Farage is an MP, he has to be accountable, actually has to try and justify his existence. The fact that he would have to attend commons rather than do his GB News show or whatever means he is going to get frustrated very quickly. They also do not get that share of the vote come through. The most was UKIP in 2015 but that was then the anti EU voice was strongest and the votes for UKIP/Brexit Party shrunk after that and the centre-left would have taken control of the situation. To me, any of these outcomes would have taken us on a far better path. edit: added data instead of bar charts Edited June 4 by cyrusr Added data 6 1
Anthony Posted June 5 VT Supporter Posted June 5 15 hours ago, cyrusr said: For those worried about the voice of Farage et al being given in parliament; well the media gives them that voice without accountability which to me is worse. If Farage is an MP, he has to be accountable, actually has to try and justify his existence. The fact that he would have to attend commons rather than do his GB News show or whatever means he is going to get frustrated very quickly. They also do not get that share of the vote come through. The most was UKIP in 2015 but that was then the anti EU voice was strongest and the votes for UKIP/Brexit Party shrunk after that and the centre-left would have taken control of the situation. This is a key point for me. People with these views exist, and we have to deal with them. In the current system they don't have to be dealt with in parliament, which means 'they' can pretend the issues don't exist and ignore them, and they fester and grow. If Farridge had been spouting his bollocks in the Commons, he'd have been utterly destroyed. Maybe. A second addition to the pro PR argument, which I'll admit is idealistic, is that everyone deserves a voice, and a democracy should provide that. If people don't have a voice, then the democracy loses some legitimacy, which opens a crack for authoritarians (Trump, Putin etc) to leverage. Now then, just before Brexit, where did Aaron Banks get a big wodge of cash from again? 2
Mr_Dogg Posted June 5 Posted June 5 16 hours ago, cyrusr said: https://www.electoral-reform.org.uk/latest-news-and-research/publications/lessons-not-learnt-the-2015-2017-2019-general-elections/ So in this is sets outs what the outcomes would be in the last 3 general elections if they were done under different forms of proportionate representation (Party List PR, Alternative Vote, Single Transferable Vote, Additional Member System) although I am not sure why they do different methods for each election. The bar charts didn't copy correctly but here is the data instead: - Seat projections under different voting systems, General election 2015 (Great Britain) Party FPTP STV AV List PR Conservative 331 276 337 242 Labour 232 236 227 208 SNP 56 34 54 30 Lib Dem 8 26 9 47 Plaid Cymru 3 3 3 5 UKIP 1 54 1 80 Green Party 1 3 1 20 Total 632 632 632 632 In short, it would have unlikely had a massive impact on 2015 election (either Tories outright or in coalition with UKIP) so that would have likely led to Brexit vote anyway. Seat projections under different voting systems, General election 2017 (Great Britain) Party FPTP STV AMS AV Conservative 317 282 274 304 Labour 262 297 274 286 SNP 35 18 21 27 Lib Dem 12 29 39 11 Plaid Cymru 4 3 4 2 Green Party 1 1 8 1 UKIP 0 1 11 0 Total 631 631 631 631 In 2017, in all of the PR options, it would have likely led to some combination of Labour/Lib Dem/SNP coalition and likely change the future as to how Brexit was dealt with. Seat projections under different voting systems, General election 2019 (Great Britain) Party FPTP STV AMS List PR Conservative 365 312 284 288 Labour 203 221 188 216 SNP 48 30 26 28 Lib Dem 11 59 79 70 Plaid Cymru 4 5 5 4 Green Party 1 2 38 12 Brexit Party 0 3 12 11 Others 0 0 0 3 Total 632 632 632 632 In 2019 again both the Party List and Alternative Members system would lead to coalitions of Labour/Lib Dem/SNP/Greens. With the Single Transferrable Vote it might be possible for Tory/UKIP/DUP but would be the tiniest of margins. The moral of the story seems to be with PR, we would almost certainly taken a very different course with Brexit, even if we would likely still had to face the vote anyway. For those worried about the voice of Farage et al being given in parliament; well the media gives them that voice without accountability which to me is worse. If Farage is an MP, he has to be accountable, actually has to try and justify his existence. The fact that he would have to attend commons rather than do his GB News show or whatever means he is going to get frustrated very quickly. They also do not get that share of the vote come through. The most was UKIP in 2015 but that was then the anti EU voice was strongest and the votes for UKIP/Brexit Party shrunk after that and the centre-left would have taken control of the situation. To me, any of these outcomes would have taken us on a far better path. edit: added data instead of bar charts Interesting but how is this worked out when the ballot doesn't cater for it?
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