If there was an election tomorrow

[Chindie]

No point voting for anyone else, undoubtedly many people in my situation would vote for the BNP as a 'protest vote', a strange phenomenon because you could 'protest vote' for the Green party, but it seems no-one ever does.

I think I can explain that using a term called psychological transference. People become disillusioned to such a point that they lose rational thought, hence their actions would become virtually unconscious, and they would then radicalise their vote as they would then feel that this radicalisation would make more of a difference.

EDIT: Yes I am aware that transference is generally accepted as an inter-personal thing, but I'm trying to use it in political terms.

Start quick at Bournville obviously.

Personally I'm going to reject that hypothesis and go all bigotted myself and say that it's the nasty underbelly of society influenced by the media rising to the top like scum on a pond.

.

Also, Ian, I'm not too clear on wat you mean by capitalism having an influence on the dynamics of politcal standing. As far as I'm aware (and finance is by no means my strong point), this country has always been capitalist. But that hasn't stopped us having left leaning parties.

EDIT - I should clarify that I know that a stance on financial issues effects political ideals but I'm not so sure it;s the be all and end all of us not having a particularly leftist party with a chance of winning.

[Rodders]

the problem with voting is most of the votes are rendered redundant in the fptp idea. So as I currently live in a tory safe seat there is afuck all point me voting Lib Dem even though I'd like to. So meaningless, I'll moan all I like and wish they'd overhaul the voting system entirely, including a reform of the houses.

Also whilst im no tory, they also won the "popular vote" in England last time round, yet that isn't reflected at all in seats. It's so skewered that apathy can breed quite happily so whilst I think being ignorant of the parties and not bothering is a poor show, refusing to do so because you believe it's a total waste is fair enough. What does spoiling the ballot do? No-one takes any notice of it anyway.

Give me, some change including PR, a House of Reps US style and a seperation of voting for my local MP and the Leader /President style type and I'll become more engaged.

the current set up is aload of archaic old toss.

watched the lib dem conference and whilst I agreed with many of the soundbites, there's just no point at all me voting whilst I currently live where I do.

[ianrobo1]

left parties are meant to moderate the captialist system

[Rodders]

whats strange is how the Lib Dems have lurched to the right when there was a gap on the left

there is no doubt as muh as I dislike it but no left wing party would be voted in by the English

Blair identified this but now we saw what Captilism can do is the turning point close ?

generally i guess because many people feel "safer" voting with a party that isn't going to overhaul their cushty way of life hence polarising parties aren't going to ever take off spectacularly. The Lib Dems need to target the middle ground if they are to ever have aspirations of being a more credible visible force in politics, rather than a large fringe group acting in a glorified pressure group type role.

[ianrobo1]

but Rodders why is the left very strong in the North, Scotland and Wales but not in the south where a large number of MP's are from

if we just had english elections the Tories in most times would always be top

they have no chance in scotland and Wales

the English are generally centre or just right of it

but the centre can now be considried right if that makes sense

[Doug's_Missing_Wallet]

But I'm sad that it's come to this. People have short memories, and will get the government that they deserve.

Indeed. The 1970's seem to have been forgotten, and low and behold we have got the government that the people who voted for them deserve.

It's interesting how people can people can say "never forget what the Tories did" and yet seem very keen on forgetting what Labour did previously to them, whilst glossing over what is going on now like it's a minor inconvinence that can't be helped.

[ianrobo1]

Doug are the Tories of the 80/90's any different from the party today ?

Labour was different from the parties of the 70's no question of that whatsoever

[Rodders]

the problem with voting is most of the votes are rendered redundant in the fptp idea. So as I currently live in a tory safe seat there is afuck all point me voting Lib Dem even though I'd like to.

Do you actually live outside the city, then?

In which constituency do you live?

yes in a rural area

Worcestershire Mid. last election: turnout 67&

CONPeter Luff 51.5% 24,783

LD Margaret Rowley 20.4% 9796

Lib dems gained 1.6% more there

of course I'm sure I'll be moving elsewhere soon enough, when I finally find employment, but even so, it irks me that in places like this potential voters might be dissuaded because those votes are discarded essentially until the next election.

[mjmooney]

Labour supporters of my generation would like the old Labour party back. Tory supporters of my generation would like the old Tory party back. (shudder)

In those days there was at least a clear-cut choice.

[Rodders]

but Rodders why is the left very strong in the North, Scotland and Wales but not in the south where a large number of MP's are from

if we just had english elections the Tories in most times would always be top

they have no chance in scotland and Wales

the English are generally centre or just right of it

but the centre can now be considried right if that makes sense

varying socioeconomic factors there I guess. I might just be shooting out stereotypes here, but in Wales / Scotland, where there is plenty of patriotic sentiment, the tories will always flounder - being seen as the most english of english parties, and maybe it's to do with that, historically lots of the mines / docks etc, full of workers in these areas? shoot me down if im writing codswallop

and yes the centre has gravitated to the right imo I'm not sure if it's a temporary or a growing gradual cultural shift.

[ianrobo1]

just a swing I think which is why we have seen some left wingers come out and state the city has to be regulate more and alrady the FSA has effectivtly banned short selling

interesting times because noticable by th lack of words have been the Tories because they would do even less than Labour has Brow has said things would be looked into

[acwilliams]

Personally I'm going to reject that hypothesis and go all bigotted myself and say that it's the nasty underbelly of society influenced by the media rising to the top like scum on a pond.

Even if that was the case, it could be argued that the media influences us to such a heavy extent that it, in some cases, exaggerates our feelings of disillusionment to such a point that the actions of the people who believe it could be, from a psychological standpoint, seen as unconscious behaviour, which brings me back to my first point.

Either way, I win. :winkold:

[Doug's_Missing_Wallet]

Doug are the Tories of the 80/90's any different from the party today ?

I think so. There's quite a difference between some of the new Tories and old ones like Thatcher, Tebbit etc. Only since Cameron took over though. Howard was still 'old Tory'. Remains to be seen, I guess. If, like you, believe in the opposite of what the old Tory party stood for then I can understand if you don't believe they might have changed.

Labour was different from the parties of the 70's no question of that whatsoever

Agreed, and if you'd asked most people in the 70's/80's if the Labour Party could have become what it is now then most would've said no. Which kind of ties in to my above comment.

In those days there was at least a clear-cut choice.

Again, agreed. And that's one of the main problems at the moment. People are finding they don't identify with a party. And you have the Labour party making right-wing decisions, the Tories trying to appeal more to left wing people and the Libs trying to find a way of being different, whilst all the time still being pretty similar.

[ianrobo1]

Doug, I really don't think they have changed intellectually

better PR for certain but Camero is a paid fan of Thatch but as we have yet to see policies how can we judge ??

they key for me is how they have policies for the NHS, it is not in a bad state at all and i some areas real positive. It does ot need any real major reforms form what I see it works.

Now remeber the old Tory polciy of allowing private patients to 'opt out' is that still o the table ? god knows ..

the silence thi week is typical ... They can hardly say they would have doe much different ...

ad the key to the closeness is the percieved wisdom that a left of centre party can not win i this coutry any more, is that true and if so why ? Because the left like the right have an equal ly valid view, is it over time we have as a coutry become ore middle class and therefore more conservative with a small 'c' ?

[Rodders]

why is there a need for total distinction?

I want someone who'd be pragmatic, not someone who'd stick to some principle even when it's blatantly failing, then have to go through some ridiculous self-haranguing about 'changing the credo'.

I don't want uber left or uber right at all.

I wouldn't want a govt to tax everyone to death and waste it all, and I wouldn't want a party which isn't too far off this Not the nine o clock news pastiche: http://tinyurl.com/46n7y8

[Doug's_Missing_Wallet]

Doug, I really don't think they have changed intellectually

better PR for certain but Camero is a paid fan of Thatch but as we have yet to see policies how can we judge ??

they key for me is how they have policies for the NHS, it is not in a bad state at all and i some areas real positive. It does ot need any real major reforms form what I see it works.

Now remeber the old Tory polciy of allowing private patients to 'opt out' is that still o the table ? god knows ..

the silence thi week is typical ... They can hardly say they would have doe much different ...

ad the key to the closeness is the percieved wisdom that a left of centre party can not win i this coutry any more, is that true and if so why ? Because the left like the right have an equal ly valid view, is it over time we have as a coutry become ore middle class and therefore more conservative with a small 'c' ?

It's conjecture at best to say they wouldn't have done things differently. Unless the same situation occurs if/when they're next in government then we can judge their response to it. At the moment we can only summise.

You make it sound as if it's a bad thing to be a 'fan' of Thatcher. It's not really suprising that he might be, she won 3 elections on the bounce for the party with large majorities. Doesn't necessarily mean that he agrees with everything she did though. Did you agree with every single one of Blair's decisions and/or the way he went about them.

As for the NHS, it depends on what side you are looking at it. To say that it doesn't need any major reforms is way off the mark IMO. I have a friend of mine who is a nurse at Good Hope. Ask her if there should be any reforms to how it is run. Or ask my sister who is a student doctor in South London if there are any reforms that could be made. Haemorriging cash that, frankly, it doesn't have. There are still too many high paid jobs in NHS for desk jobs/admin etc. At my sisters hospital, they recently spent tens of thousands of pounds on a new marble sculpture to go by the main doors, at the same time as reducing the amount of nurses on the wards and increasing the hours that junior doctors have to work.

[leviramsey]

If I was voting in the UK...

...AND... (in descending order of precedence)

* I was in a district that was safe Labour/Conservative, I'd vote for any LibDem as a protest vote more than anything

* The LibDem running was of the Orange Book variety, I'd vote for the LibDem wholeheartedly

* There was a candidate from the Libertarians running, I'd vote for them

* Either a spoilt ballot or tactical voting (probably leaning Tory or UKIP, but not sure)

{I voted LibDem in the poll}

[leviramsey]

of course I'm sure I'll be moving elsewhere soon enough, when I finally find employment, but even so, it irks me that in places like this potential voters might be dissuaded because those votes are discarded essentially until the next election.

At least you can vote...

I live in a Commonwealth where there is a functional two-party system: the socially-conservative "lunchpail" Democrats (Old Labour basically) and the socially-liberal suburban Democrats (New Labour more or less).

In The Great and General Court of the Commonwealth's lower house, Democrats of either stripe hold 141 of 160 seats (the quorum is 25 or 30 present, IIRC... it is impossible to transact any business without D's present). In the upper house, the ratio is 35-5. A solid majority of those 200 seats had no non-Democrats running, and somewhere around half of those seats had no one running against the incumbent.

[nrogers]

You may be surprised to know, Conservative.

Will NEVER vote for the filth that is the Liebour party again.

[Awol]

Snowy, have you been posting in morse?