The Dressing Room

[Tayls]

Been thinking about the dressing room side of things and the idea that a manager/coach could have ‘lost the dressing room’ in the modern era of football. Whilst I appreciate that during interviews players can be thrown under the bus etc etc, how much should this impact a footballer who makes far more a week than the average person does in a year. What other factors are at play, such as pressure from the media and any possible abuse players or their families are receiving on social media. Surely this has an impact on performance? 

Is it a case that this has had an impact on performances recently for a few of our players? Players that were praised so often in recent seasons are being slammed this time round. Why? They aren’t playing poorly deliberately. Form is temporary but how is it some elite players can maintain that form for longer periods?
Is a clubs wage bill a good approximation of a clubs performance? Which means that managers/coaches only make a small difference? 

So many questions. Difficult to get real answers. But the way things are at the club right now, it’s making me think that something isn’t right. 

 

Edited August 22, 2022 by Tayls

[a-k]

A coach/manager can't necessarily give you confidence, but they can very easily take it away. Imagine you are good at doing something but being told to play a completely different way that 1) doesn't suit you and 2) clearly is not working. Of course you can very quickly lose faith in the manager and be at odds with those who are on good terms with the gaffer

[tomav84]

2 minutes ago, Tayls said:

Been thinking about the dressing room side of things and the idea that a manager/coach could have ‘lost the dressing’ in the modern era of football. Whilst I appreciate that during interviews players can be thrown under the bus etc etc, how much should this impact a footballer who makes far more a week than the average person does in a year. What other factors are at play, such as pressure from the media and any possible abuse players or their families are receiving on social media. Surely this has an impact on performance? 

Is it a case that this has had an impact on performances recently for a few of our players? Players that were praised so often in recent seasons are being slammed this time round. Why? They aren’t playing poorly deliberately. Form is temporary but how is it some elite players can maintain that form for longer periods?
Is a clubs wage bill a good approximate of a clubs performance? Which means that managers/coaches only make a small difference? 

So many questions. Difficult to get real answers. But the way things are at the club right now, it’s making me think that something isn’t right. 

 

i noticed saturday there was a lot more squabbling between the players than normal. i guess that's fairly typical when things aren't going so well on the pitch but it was much more noticeable saturday. martinez in particular was berating the defence a fair bit

[ozvillafan]

3 minutes ago, tomav84 said:

i noticed saturday there was a lot more squabbling between the players than normal. i guess that's fairly typical when things aren't going so well on the pitch but it was much more noticeable saturday. martinez in particular was berating the defence a fair bit

Yeah, there was some frustration - Cash gesticulating after Martinez lobbed the ball straight out, for example - but that's normal when things aren't going well.

Equating that with player unrest and "lost the dressing room" is correlation, not causation.

[Tayls]

12 minutes ago, a-k said:

A coach/manager can't necessarily give you confidence, but they can very easily take it away. Imagine you are good at doing something but being told to play a completely different way that 1) doesn't suit you and 2) clearly is not working. Of course you can very quickly lose faith in the manager and be at odds with those who are on good terms with the gaffer

But let’s take Konsa for example. Less than 1 year ago we were worried that he would be snapped up by the likes of Liverpool, and that he should be playing for England - even ahead of Mings at one point. He signed a new contact which, let’s face it, means he is earning more money. His job is to defend; track the runs of strikers and put his body on the line to prevent us conceding. Whilst it’s the overall system that the new coaching team will be looking to change, surely that shouldn’t impact on his overall ability to defend? He looks lost, and he isn’t doing the basics. So what has happened which means he cannot fulfil a fundamental part of his role in line with the salary he is earning to do just that.

Edited August 22, 2022 by Tayls

[daft]

7 minutes ago, Tayls said:

Been thinking about the dressing room side of things and the idea that a manager/coach could have ‘lost the dressing room’ in the modern era of football. Whilst I appreciate that during interviews players can be thrown under the bus etc etc, how much should this impact a footballer who makes far more a week than the average person does in a year. What other factors are at play, such as pressure from the media and any possible abuse players or their families are receiving on social media. Surely this has an impact on performance? 

Is it a case that this has had an impact on performances recently for a few of our players? Players that were praised so often in recent seasons are being slammed this time round. Why? They aren’t playing poorly deliberately. Form is temporary but how is it some elite players can maintain that form for longer periods?
Is a clubs wage bill a good approximate of a clubs performance? Which means that managers/coaches only make a small difference? 

So many questions. Difficult to get real answers. But the way things are at the club right now, it’s making me think that something isn’t right. 

 

I think people need to look past the salary things as well as the fact that so many players are essentially larger than life figures. At the end of the day they are human, and want to be treated as such. We all respond differently to different leadership styles, and it is the same for players. We also have a new generation of players that much more than earlier generations needs a 'why' in order to understand why they are asked to do certain things. 

In general, and from my own experience with team sports as a coach and player, relationships needs to be fashioned and strengthened in good times so you can call upon those people to perform in bad times. Because when the bad times come, the stress and pressure will make it hard if not impossible to get close to the person if you aren't already, and then things can really slip. 

So in essence you need to think of your own work relationships, but then up the pressure exponentially. A manager must foster those relationships with his players to understand what makes the players tick.

Squabbling is nothing out of the ordinary per se. It's if it gets toxic behind the scenes with people shifting blame and accusing each other for losses or bad performances. Professionals will sometimes get pissed, it's how the patch things up and come together after that shows if they are a team or not. 

[Shirtman]

Stating the obvious but how Gerrard handled Mings' demotion plus the feeling that he has clear favourites amongst the players is not going to help morale in the dressing room.

Contrast Gerrard with a Klopp. They are worlds apart.

[UpTheVilla26]

I see cracks in the camp.  

At the weekend we had players arguing. You have the whole thing with Mings, you got Sanson being totally frozen out, McGinn given the Captaincy when he should be nowhere near it, Konsa has gone to shit, Luiz not getting starts, Ings & Watkins lucky dip up to see who starts, Archer possibly being farmed out on loan again, it's mounting up to an impressive list in a short space of time. 

If he's lost the players or even half of them, then he's done for.  

[villa89]

The way Gerrard speaks and carries himself its hard to imagine he has any charisma or motivating ability. 

[daft]

4 minutes ago, Shirtman said:

Stating the obvious but how Gerrard handled Mings' demotion plus the feeling that he has clear favourites amongst the players is not going to help morale in the dressing room.

Contrast Gerrard with a Klopp. They are worlds apart.

To be fair, Klopp is an outlier in terms of managerial archetype. He is very open and has strong focus on personal bonds. 

[daft]

1 minute ago, villa89 said:

The way Gerrard speaks and carries himself its hard to imagine he has any charisma or motivating ability. 

We also tend to forget that Gerrard is a celevrity, not just any random former footballer. His  behaviour in public will be guided by all his media training and the negative experiences of being in the medias spotlight essentially 24/7 as a player. How he is behind closed doors is probably very different. 

I am not defending him, I am just trying to nuance the image a bit. Klopp spoke very highly of Gerrard the person when he was involved with Liverpools youth teams for example. 

[Tayls]

So is the general consensus then that Gerrard is expected to be the person who is motivating the players and creating these bonds? Is that the main driver behind whether a player plays well or not?
Do we not think that their form can be determined by more ‘outside’ factors (social media)? More importantly, why would these outside factors having an impact on their roles? 

I’ll be honest, I’m struggling to see how a manager can lose the dressing room these days. Yes players/managers/coaches fall out but should that mean that a player plays incredibly poorly? Is that not a reflection on the player and not just the manager? Ultimately it’s the manager that will be sacked, unless a player is traded during a transfer window. I get that players can be incredibly distributive as well, but I thought we are the sort of club that does a lot of work on finding the right sorts of character. That was one is Smiths main things, anyway.  

Edited August 22, 2022 by Tayls

[a-k]

8 minutes ago, Tayls said:

So is the general consensus then that Gerrard is expected to be the person who is motivating the players and creating these bonds? Is that the main driver behind whether a player plays well or not?
Do we not think that their form can be determined by more ‘outside’ factors (social media)? More importantly, why would these outside factors having an impact on their roles? 

I’ll be honest, I’m struggling to see how a manager can lose the dressing room these days. Yes players/managers/coaches fall out but should that mean that a player plays incredibly poorly? Is that not a reflection on the player and not just the manager? Ultimately it’s the manager that will be sacked, unless a player is traded during a transfer window. I get that players can be incredibly distributive as well, but I thought we are the sort of club that does a lot of work on finding the right sorts of character. That was one is Smiths main things, anyway.  

Right or wrongly, if a player (or multiple of them) does not like the manager, they know they can just play poorly and get the manager sacked

[Zatman]

1 hour ago, daft said:

We also tend to forget that Gerrard is a celevrity, not just any random former footballer. His  behaviour in public will be guided by all his media training and the negative experiences of being in the medias spotlight essentially 24/7 as a player. How he is behind closed doors is probably very different. 

I am not defending him, I am just trying to nuance the image a bit. Klopp spoke very highly of Gerrard the person when he was involved with Liverpools youth teams for example. 

At Liverpool as captain he didny rally the troops that was Carragher job. He was a captain who led by example

[CarryOnVilla]

1 hour ago, Tayls said:

Been thinking about the dressing room side of things

 

[Zatman]

For me its no surprise the wheels have came off his managerial reign after how he treated Targett. He was a popular player and players player of the season and then dismissed immediately when Digne came in. We have been shit since then except the one week we won 3 games.

Not to mention his sniping of players and saying he would be looking to replace them after losses last season. Prerty sure they are starting weekly unless Douglas Luiz was the shit player  he kept referring too

[daft]

8 minutes ago, Zatman said:

At Liverpool as captain he didny rally the troops that was Carragher job. He was a captain who led by example

What do you mean? 'Don't let it slip boys!' 

[lexicon]

55 minutes ago, Zatman said:

At Liverpool as captain he didny rally the troops that was Carragher job. He was a captain who led by example

By stinking up the place insisting to play despite being years past his best? 

[duke313]

2 hours ago, UpTheVilla26 said:

I see cracks in the camp.  

At the weekend we had players arguing. You have the whole thing with Mings, you got Sanson being totally frozen out, McGinn given the Captaincy when he should be nowhere near it, Konsa has gone to shit, Luiz not getting starts, Ings & Watkins lucky dip up to see who starts, Archer possibly being farmed out on loan again, it's mounting up to an impressive list in a short space of time. 

If he's lost the players or even half of them, then he's done for.  

Hard to recover when half the team has lost faith in their manager.

[MaVilla]

Oh.

I came here expecting cool cosplay pics etc.

Left disappointed.