Ratings & Reactions: Everton v Villa

[Peter Griffin]

1 hour ago, briny_ear said:

 

We certainly had a very different situation to cope with in the second half - an all-out bombardment from Everton playing a forceful but not very sophisticated or targeted longball game. I think we coped with the 2nd 45 minutes very well, NB they didn't score and we won the game. So I'd say it was a 90 minute performance and we did keep them at bay. I don't really get all the misery about the second half. We defended well in the sort of game that earlier in the season we might well have lost.

No misery about the 2nd half. Just reflecting on our performance. Yes we kept a clean sheet and got 3 points but against a team with a more clinical finisher they would have scored. I would prefer that we don't offer the opponent's an opportunity to score than relying on their poor finishing

[villa4europe]

23 hours ago, Peter Griffin said:

I know we all love Emi1, the best GK we have had in a long time and we have spent way too much on dross GKs over the last 6 years or so. The time wasting from him is really starting to irk me, I would like if he stopped doing this

Time wasting / game management 

Potato / potato 

He knows exactly what he's doing, slow the game down, ruin their impetus, frustrate the crowd and opposition

If we want him to stop then we have to be a better team! There are other ways of doing it but when we are unable to string 3 passes together like yesterday then I don't mind him doing it, he must have come close to holding on to the ball longer than our midfield, shouldn't be the case but I blame the midfield first 

[BOF]

That's only the 2nd league game this season where we've won and had the majority of possession. The other game was Everton at home.

[BOF]

I gave MOTM to Mings. That's not taking away from anyone else, but the intensity Everton brought, and the absolute handful that DCL & Richarlison were all game yet comparitively never got a sniff. There were moments in the match where Mings snuffed out moves before they even became chances.  There aren't many Villa teams who would have won that match in the past decade. He led from the back and is a big reason for our clean sheet. But kudos to all of them. They were all great.  In fact I thought Coutinho was probably the quietest of them, but that's OK. He's getting up to speed and probably distracted plenty by his mere presence on the field.

[TRO]

6 hours ago, BOF said:

That's only the 2nd league game this season where we've won and had the majority of possession. The other game was Everton at home.

Its great to win away from home and keep a clean sheet, no matter, who we play.

Everton do have players who can hurt you, if they are in the groove.

and despite us showing true grit, in that second half to bring home the bacon.....It would be folly to ignore some of our shortfalls in conceding so much ground to them.

A better side would have punished us, in much the way Wolves did....If you surrender the initiative, that's what happens, it becomes an onslaught.

we need a few more 90 minute players, to resist that opposition, fight back, which is necessary at times.

I think the result was great....but when you defend that deep, you have to hope the quality in the opposition is low....my point is, we won't always get away with that.

We are trying to bring in a CDM, and in that second half, you can see why.

Edited January 24, 2022 by TRO

[PaulC]

I just think it was a very tough game for us  against an Everton side that was really up for it. They had a few chances but dont think Martinez had much to do which is a sign the defence was very good.  I really believe that Everton would have beaten most sides in the Premier League saturday so I am really proud of the performance and the 3 points. 

Edited January 24, 2022 by PaulC

[Teale's 'tache]

16 minutes ago, TRO said:

Its great to win away from home and keep a clean sheet, no matter, who we play.

Everton do have players who can hurt you, if they are in the grove.

and despite us showing true grit, in that second half to bring home the bacon.....It would be folly to ignore some of our shortfalls in conceding so much ground to them.

A better side would have punished us, in much the way Wolves did....If you surrender the initiative, that's what happens, it becomes an onslaught.

we need a few more 90 minute players, to resist that opposition, fight back, which is necessary at times.

I think the result was great....but when you defend that deep, you have to hope the quality in the opposition is low....my point is, we won't always get away with that.

We are trying to bring in a CDM, and in that second half, you can see why.

Agree with most of this and also agree with the need for CDM, however I felt the reason we were so penned in throughout the majority of the second half was more to do with us giving the ball away cheaply than a failure to win it back.

Everton playing the numbers game and lumping it up there at every opportunity meant there were plenty of second balls to be won, and we won plenty enough I thought, but the difference between the first and second half was what we did next, first half we played around the press, worked it between the lines and eventually created opportunities, second half we seemed much happier to just launch it (probably as we were much closer to our own goal) when a bit of composure and keeping the ball for a while would of took the sting out of the situation and got us further up the pitch.

It's a cracking result and no complaints from me, but you're right in what you say, we can't expect shut up shop like that against better teams and get away with it. We have to take care of the ball better if we want to progress.

[TRO]

9 minutes ago, Teale's 'tache said:

Agree with most of this and also agree with the need for CDM, however I felt the reason we were so penned in throughout the majority of the second half was more to do with us giving the ball away cheaply than a failure to win it back.

Everton playing the numbers game and lumping it up there at every opportunity meant there were plenty of second balls to be won, and we won plenty enough I thought, but the difference between the first and second half was what we did next, first half we played around the press, worked it between the lines and eventually created opportunities, second half we seemed much happier to just launch it (probably as we were much closer to our own goal) when a bit of composure and keeping the ball for a while would of took the sting out of the situation and got us further up the pitch.

It's a cracking result and no complaints from me, but you're right in what you say, we can't expect shut up shop like that against better teams and get away with it. We have to take care of the ball better if we want to progress.

I agree,too.

Thats what I meant by saying "surrender the initiative"......giving the ball away cheaply.

Edited January 24, 2022 by TRO

[A'Villan]

18 hours ago, TRO said:

Its great to win away from home and keep a clean sheet, no matter, who we play.

Everton do have players who can hurt you, if they are in the groove.

and despite us showing true grit, in that second half to bring home the bacon.....It would be folly to ignore some of our shortfalls in conceding so much ground to them.

A better side would have punished us, in much the way Wolves did....If you surrender the initiative, that's what happens, it becomes an onslaught.

we need a few more 90 minute players, to resist that opposition, fight back, which is necessary at times.

I think the result was great....but when you defend that deep, you have to hope the quality in the opposition is low....my point is, we won't always get away with that.

We are trying to bring in a CDM, and in that second half, you can see why.

While I don't follow Everton at all outside of a few highlights and our fixtures with them, from an 'on paper' perspective they should be challenging European placing. 

Success is what happens when preparation meets opportunity and our guys are working to develop, anyone can see that. I am actually thinking in this game the more concerning aspect was how we might have punished them more for all the ground we had first half, and less about how a capable Everton side who by all means are searching for anything to walk away with and build on, had some substantial opportunities to amend being second best in the first half. They are desperate for that and don't undermine how good they can be by underestimating that side of the fixture.

They are more physical than us too. Which despite being on the back foot first half was always going to serve them in terms of stamina.

The most energy depleting times in the contest come from grafting to cover ground but mostly from those intensely contested moments where you have to give your best effort and sustain it longer than the guy who's fighting the same as you. I think Everton as a side are more equipped for a physical contest than us as is.

[BOF]

1 hour ago, A'Villan said:

While I don't follow Everton at all outside of a few highlights and our fixtures with them, from an 'on paper' perspective they should be challenging European placing. 

Success is what happens when preparation meets opportunity and our guys are working to develop, anyone can see that. I am actually thinking in this game the more concerning aspect was how we might have punished them more for all the ground we had first half, and less about how a capable Everton side who by all means are searching for anything to walk away with and build on, had some substantial opportunities to amend being second best in the first half. They are desperate for that and don't undermine how good they can be by underestimating that side of the fixture.

They are more physical than us too. Which despite being on the back foot first half was always going to serve them in terms of stamina.

The most energy depleting times in the contest come from grafting to cover ground but mostly from those intensely contested moments where you have to give your best effort and sustain it longer than the guy who's fighting the same as you. I think Everton as a side are more equipped for a physical contest than us as is.

Everton challenging for Europe 'on paper'? I disagree. They're muck at the back, mediocre on the wings and unsettled in midfield. They're comparitively class up front with DCL & Richarlison giving anyone a game on their day. But they're so far from challenging for Europe it's scary (if you're a toffee). I think they should probably be safer than they are right now, and if they play the way they did against us they soon will be. But they best not be complacent, and tbf to their fans they're not being complacent. They know the danger they're in. But Europe, not on your nelly.

[TRO]

1 hour ago, A'Villan said:

While I don't follow Everton at all outside of a few highlights and our fixtures with them, from an 'on paper' perspective they should be challenging European placing. 

Success is what happens when preparation meets opportunity and our guys are working to develop, anyone can see that. I am actually thinking in this game the more concerning aspect was how we might have punished them more for all the ground we had first half, and less about how a capable Everton side who by all means are searching for anything to walk away with and build on, had some substantial opportunities to amend being second best in the first half. They are desperate for that and don't undermine how good they can be by underestimating that side of the fixture.

They are more physical than us too. Which despite being on the back foot first half was always going to serve them in terms of stamina.

The most energy depleting times in the contest come from grafting to cover ground but mostly from those intensely contested moments where you have to give your best effort and sustain it longer than the guy who's fighting the same as you. I think Everton as a side are more equipped for a physical contest than us as is.

I see your point.

I am not saying this disparagingly, but most teams are more physical than us( this goes back a long time, now)...its an area, I hope we can enhance.....its a part of being "easy to play against"

Even our front 2 Ings and Watkins are not aggressive enough, and that doesn't mean going around kicking defenders.

The top sides are physical, with stealth and engage with close contact as a central part of games....Man City are physical, when they have to be.

It comes back the that great saying in football........" You have to WIN the right to play football"

[A'Villan]

15 hours ago, TRO said:

I see your point.

I am not saying this disparagingly, but most teams are more physical than us( this goes back a long time, now)...its an area, I hope we can enhance.....its a part of being "easy to play against"

Even our front 2 Ings and Watkins are not aggressive enough, and that doesn't mean going around kicking defenders.

The top sides are physical, with stealth and engage with close contact as a central part of games....Man City are physical, when they have to be.

It comes back the that great saying in football........" You have to WIN the right to play football"

McGinn and Luiz get stuck in. And that's the first step in winning a fight, thinking you can and acting on that.

Neither are blessed in terms of physique or deft with their feet enough to pick the pockets of opposition before they have a clue. However both make their presence known. Albeit its not ideal and we probably won't go on to stop the best clubs from creating if they are the best protection for our last line we can assemble and deploy for that purpose.

One aspect of my wanting to see Sanson more often is that I feel he does possess reads that allow him easier dispossession of opposition plays and build up. Whereas McGinn and Dougie are just terrier like and often annoy an opponent into an error, or at least get in their heads with the constant attempts to win it for our side.

All top players are physical when they need to be, or feel the need to be, like Messi in his younger years just had to have his say and he wasn't done until the ninety minute bell rang, it was his ball and certainly no opponent was going to play with it. Then there was Zidanes headbutt, not exactly great football but my Dad has always said, "you've got to have a bit of mongrel in you" and he's right. If you are not capable of fighting and therefore being cruel at times, you are going to be vulnerable and at the mercy of those who are that way for whatever reason they are that way. I think the one exception to that being true in football history is Ronaldinho, who was so lovely and nice, always and sincerely. He just beamed with that smile and his manner. Even the Real Madrid fans applauded the way he played, despite it being their loss. 

I got a bit carried away there.

Definitely agree being a physical presence is of utmost importance to winning, they're not ghosts out there.

[TRO]

11 hours ago, A'Villan said:

McGinn and Luiz get stuck in. And that's the first step in winning a fight, thinking you can and acting on that.

Neither are blessed in terms of physique or deft with their feet enough to pick the pockets of opposition before they have a clue. However both make their presence known. Albeit its not ideal and we probably won't go on to stop the best clubs from creating if they are the best protection for our last line we can assemble and deploy for that purpose.

One aspect of my wanting to see Sanson more often is that I feel he does possess reads that allow him easier dispossession of opposition plays and build up. Whereas McGinn and Dougie are just terrier like and often annoy an opponent into an error, or at least get in their heads with the constant attempts to win it for our side.

All top players are physical when they need to be, or feel the need to be, like Messi in his younger years just had to have his say and he wasn't done until the ninety minute bell rang, it was his ball and certainly no opponent was going to play with it. Then there was Zidanes headbutt, not exactly great football but my Dad has always said, "you've got to have a bit of mongrel in you" and he's right. If you are not capable of fighting and therefore being cruel at times, you are going to be vulnerable and at the mercy of those who are that way for whatever reason they are that way. I think the one exception to that being true in football history is Ronaldinho, who was so lovely and nice, always and sincerely. He just beamed with that smile and his manner. Even the Real Madrid fans applauded the way he played, despite it being their loss. 

I got a bit carried away there.

Definitely agree being a physical presence is of utmost importance to winning, they're not ghosts out there.

I agree with your appreciation of the physicality of the game and your analogies to boot...

but where I differ, is your appraisal of Dougie and the highlighted bits is where I disagree....its easy to see why he is described as an enigma....He is good at somethings and passive at others and it depends which things catch our eye.

The very reason that SG has decided to go in to the market, is because Dougie is too passive in the No6 role...He makes the odd challenge sure, but his game is not about that, and has said so himself, he see's himself as a no8 and I agree with him.

The problem can be when sightly built players go in for a challenge they have to over compensate for their lack of muscle and its that, that refs pick up on...it looks callous as opposed to routine from a bigger guy....this is a generalisation of course.

Dougie does divide opinion in our Fan Base, but imo each side are arguing slightly different points.

DL has a typical Brazillian touch, and his passing is first class....I wouldn't like to see him go, more like to see him work further up the pitch, where I think his natural abilities are better suited.

[A'Villan]

2 minutes ago, TRO said:

I agree with your appreciation of the physicality of the game and your analogies to boot...

but where I differ, is your appraisal of Dougie and the highlighted bits is where I disagree....its easy to see why he is described as an enigma....He is good at somethings and passive at others and it depends which things catch our eye.

The very reason that SG has decided to go in to the market, is because Dougie is too passive in the No6 role...He makes the odd challenge sure, but his game is not about that, and has said so himself, he see's himself as a no8 and I agree with him.

The problem can be when sightly built players go in for a challenge they have to over compensate for their lack of muscle and its that, that refs pick up on...it looks callous as opposed to routine from a bigger guy....this is a generalisation of course.

Dougie does divide opinion in our Fan Base, but imo each side are arguing slightly different points.

DL has a typical Brazillian touch, and his passing is first class....I wouldn't like to see him go, more like to see him work further up the pitch, where I think his natural abilities are better suited.

No we are in agreement on Dougie Luiz, almost entirely. I see him as an eight more than a six, however I think he can play both relatively well, and at his age and how long he's been in the league, he's got some development to do in any position he plays in.

I think there's shades of the other day making way back into the discussion when you so aptly put the debate is also down to how we might view what it means to be a CDM. 

I mean Pirlo started out as a #10 and Ancelotti put him in a deeper role and he went on to become one of if not the best DLP's ever. It was his ability on the ball and orchestrating play with pinpoint accuracy and weight of pass that just wove its way into the next passage of play so that his team mates were well placed. Dougie doesn't quite have the poise for that yet, but technically I think he could give it a good go. 

And he does hustle, he's too young and eager, almost naive to read the play well enough to pick pockets yet and I doubt that is going to be one of his better assets, though he makes good interceptions when he's in a position that allows for it.

Unless stationed in front of the back four with others who are further forward doing their bit to get back and press the opposition into channels whereby only so much can happen and the CDM can be clued in to where that will be and therefore anticipates in time to make the intercept, he's not going to be that kind of player anyway because it's not on his radar. City wanted him as a six. But then again City's six spends more time being an outlet in the attacking half for build up play than actually nullifying moves before the back line has to.

I think its a bit premature to pigeon hole him anyway. SG might inspire him to become a version of himself that we are yet to see. He might get the feeling that Villa no longer offers the role he wants and aspires for himself and seeks a move.

I really don't know.

[TRO]

5 minutes ago, A'Villan said:

No we are in agreement on Dougie Luiz, almost entirely. I see him as an eight more than a six, however I think he can play both relatively well, and at his age and how long he's been in the league, he's got some development to do in any position he plays in.

I think there's shades of the other day making way back into the discussion when you so aptly put the debate is also down to how we might view what it means to be a CDM. 

I mean Pirlo started out as a #10 and Ancelotti put him in a deeper role and he went on to become one of if not the best DLP's ever. It was his ability on the ball and orchestrating play with pinpoint accuracy and weight of pass that just wove its way into the next passage of play so that his team mates were well placed. Dougie doesn't quite have the poise for that yet, but technically I think he could give it a good go. 

And he does hustle, he's too young and eager, almost naive to read the play well enough to pick pockets yet and I doubt that is going to be one of his better assets, though he makes good interceptions when he's in a position that allows for it.

Unless stationed in front of the back four with others who are further forward doing their bit to get back and press the opposition into channels whereby only so much can happen and the CDM can be clued in to where that will be and therefore anticipates in time to make the intercept, he's not going to be that kind of player anyway because it's not on his radar. City wanted him as a six. But then again City's six spends more time being an outlet in the attacking half for build up play than actually nullifying moves before the back line has to.

I think its a bit premature to pigeon hole him anyway. SG might inspire him to become a version of himself that we are yet to see. He might get the feeling that Villa no longer offers the role he wants and aspires for himself and seeks a move.

I really don't know.

yeah, I see all that...in fact our manager himself was deployed in the holding role in his twighlight career....as for Man city, I think Rodri and Fernandinho who play that role are much bigger in stature than Dougie and show a far more assertive approach to defending...its kinda what I am looking for and hoping SG is too.

[OutByEaster?]

On 24/01/2022 at 10:55, BOF said:

That's only the 2nd league game this season where we've won and had the majority of possession. The other game was Everton at home.

It'd be interesting to see the possession figures from the first half to the second half - it certainly felt like we spent the last half hour lumping the ball upfield and getting back into shape to defend rather than playing any football!

 

[BOF]

On 27/01/2022 at 11:03, OutByEaster? said:

It'd be interesting to see the possession figures from the first half to the second half - it certainly felt like we spent the last half hour lumping the ball upfield and getting back into shape to defend rather than playing any football!

I can't find anywhere that shows this.

[TRO]

On 27/01/2022 at 11:03, OutByEaster? said:

It'd be interesting to see the possession figures from the first half to the second half - it certainly felt like we spent the last half hour lumping the ball upfield and getting back into shape to defend rather than playing any football!

 

I think had we insisted on playing football, we might have been undone.

I would like to see us be more measured and composed, when we slip in to a containing game, but I don't think we have enough players designed for that just yet.

Necessity is the mother of invention.....I don't think we wanted to play like that, Everton forced it on us, and it was the only solution, under the circumstances.

The prime objective was 3 points, and we got it......The route to that, could have been better, I guess thats where the improvement we are looking for, manifests itself from.