sne Posted October 21, 2021 Share Posted October 21, 2021 1 minute ago, Peter Griffin said: So our team was under performing in relation to the players we had? Not sure what you are going for here tbh. We went from 17th in 19/20 to 11th last season and got 20 more points. West Ham got 26 points more in 20/21 compared to 19/20 which of course is great for them. Currently we are 4 points behind West Ham who are once again doing well. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Griffin Posted October 21, 2021 Share Posted October 21, 2021 1 minute ago, sne said: Not sure what you are going for here tbh. We went from 17th in 19/20 to 11th last season and got 20 more points. West Ham got 26 points more in 20/21 compared to 19/20 which of course is great for them. Currently we are 4 points behind West Ham who are once again doing well. West Ham qualified for Europa finishing 6th and 10 points ahead of us. Their improvement has been better than ours Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post bobzy Posted October 21, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted October 21, 2021 (edited) 1 minute ago, Peter Griffin said: West Ham qualified for Europa finishing 6th and 10 points ahead of us. Their improvement has been better than ours When were they last relegated? Edit: actually, more relevant, when were they last promoted? Edited October 21, 2021 by bobzy 4 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sne Posted October 21, 2021 Share Posted October 21, 2021 (edited) 9 minutes ago, Peter Griffin said: West Ham qualified for Europa finishing 6th and 10 points ahead of us. Their improvement has been better than ours That is correct, very good for them. They were 4 points points ahead of us in 19/20 and another 6 better the season after. Edited October 21, 2021 by sne 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nick76 Posted October 21, 2021 Share Posted October 21, 2021 39 minutes ago, Peter Griffin said: But surely that was taking into account that we were in a transition phase and had just spent 144m on about 14 players so it could be argued that Villa too were under performing for the players we had in the squad No I dont agree, for the players we had at the time they were playing it was about right. Through additional coaching and a couple more players, the level increased and thus the following season midtable was the level. Through experience, coaching and talent players get better for example Archer is on the fringes of the first team squad and that is his level at this moment but in 3 years time he could be one of the best strikers in the country through coaching, experience and his talent. Ok, I'm dreaming now but you get my point. But for that squad that season avoiding relegation was a good achievement. Then through experience, coaching, talent and a few extra players we were able to attain 55 points the following season. This season those same players have some more experience but the incremental difference is less because they already have two years at the top level, we've lost a world class talent in Jack and we've had issues pre-season and start of season. Some people agree with, some dont think should be a factor but that's another debate. West Ham had a midtable team, vastly underperformed that season and then overperformed the following season, can they keep that up, lets see but I think Moyes is a great manager so maybe he can just like Rodgers does and I think Smith is in that category as well although a lot less experienced but that takes time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MessiWillSignForVilla Posted October 21, 2021 Share Posted October 21, 2021 3 hours ago, Vive_La_Villa said: Whilst this isn’t a defence of Smith and Villa’s progress. I think you really have to look at West Ham’s spending over the past 5-10 years to see how they should be challenging where they are really. People go on about West Ham like they have done wonders and over achieved but in reality they have spent a hell of a lot of money. They were way ahead of us in their progression. We’re playing catch up. We really got screwed over by getting relegated when we did, literally the season before the new bumper TV deal that allowed mid table teams to start splashing about £35m-£40m+ transfer fees, it made the gap created by that 3 years out of the league even bigger than it already would've been. It would've been much better to be relegated around 2013 or 2014 instead of circling the drain for years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nick76 Posted October 21, 2021 Share Posted October 21, 2021 45 minutes ago, Peter Griffin said: I was going to say those two have improved too but being devil's advocate. The have changed from 20 and 21 years old when they joined us. Is their improvement significantly greater than the normal expected improvement in a professional football player with potential at that age? I think Konsa has probably improved very well, I am not so sure about Dougie It's all down to personal view. So many 20-21 years fail to realise their talents and end up in the lower leagues and good coaching, especially in youngsters is to get that talent out and mold it into a good footballer. The talent is always down to the football, the coaching helps with bringing that out and developing the tactical and mental side of the game and get the best from it. For me, I think that has happened not only to our youngsters in the squad but also many others. I chose Konsa and Luiz because for me they were so obvious. I'm surprised you dont think or not so sure about Dougie. I think you could always see the talent, even early on but a PL player he wasnt and he didnt click but no slower that player has come on, learnt his trade, what he needs to do and how to play and is a quality PL player and even getting recognition for Brazil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nick76 Posted October 21, 2021 Share Posted October 21, 2021 (edited) 2 hours ago, Peter Griffin said: And arguably every one of our players turned out better than Haller did Well done Smith then! He should get some credit for that. (I'm waiting for somebody to say Wes) Edited October 21, 2021 by nick76 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villa4europe Posted October 21, 2021 Share Posted October 21, 2021 42 minutes ago, Peter Griffin said: West Ham qualified for Europa finishing 6th and 10 points ahead of us. Their improvement has been better than ours their starting point was better than ours... both of them failed and have since been moved on but in 19/20 they had 2 £40m players in their team west ham massively under performed 2 years ago followed by over performing last year, link their improvement to them being so shit the year before and i would link the 2 to their boo boys and negativity, amazing what a year without fans inside the stadium calling their owners out did for them 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nick76 Posted October 21, 2021 Share Posted October 21, 2021 (edited) 59 minutes ago, Peter Griffin said: At the time Moyes took over Hammers most people in the media and on Villa forums thought the last relegation spot that year was between Hammers and Villa. It was often said that our visit to them on the final day would be to see which team went down I think this is going around in circles anyway. Can we agree both Smith with Villa and Moyes with West Ham have improved enormously since then? Moyes has done well and Smith has done well. If Moyes has done better (I'm not saying he has) but if he has then great for them and for us we have done well. It seems to me we are debating whether Smith/Villa have improved the most or second most (or I'm sure somebody will include a third team) but the point is we have improved more so than most of the teams in the PL, all under Smith's leadership. That has to be a good thing? Edited October 21, 2021 by nick76 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sne Posted October 21, 2021 Share Posted October 21, 2021 2 minutes ago, nick76 said: I think this is going around in circles anyway. Can we agree both Smith with Villa and Moyes with West Ham have improved enormously since then? Moyes has done well and Smith has done well. If Moyes has done better (I'm not saying he has) but if he has then great for them and for us we have done well. It seems to me we are debating whether Smith/Villa have improved the most or second most (or I'm sure somebody will include a third team) but the point is we have improved more so than most of the teams in the PL, all under Smith's leadership. That has to be a good thing? We could do the same round but with Wolves instead, or Arsenal, or Sheffield United. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulC Posted October 21, 2021 Share Posted October 21, 2021 21 minutes ago, nick76 said: I think this is going around in circles anyway. Can we agree both Smith with Villa and Moyes with West Ham have improved enormously since then? Moyes has done well and Smith has done well. If Moyes has done better (I'm not saying he has) but if he has then great for them and for us we have done well. It seems to me we are debating whether Smith/Villa have improved the most or second most (or I'm sure somebody will include a third team) but the point is we have improved more so than most of the teams in the PL, all under Smith's leadership. That has to be a good thing? We have to continue the improvement or at least not regress this season though. Big two games coming up against Arsenal and West Ham. I think we might get something at Arsenal but West Ham are tough physical side and it will be a tough matchup. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nick76 Posted October 21, 2021 Share Posted October 21, 2021 6 minutes ago, PaulC said: We have to continue the improvement or at least not regress this season though. Big two games coming up against Arsenal and West Ham. I think we might get something at Arsenal but West Ham are tough physical side and it will be a tough matchup. I honestly never look at Villa or football like that I look over at least slightly longer periods because anything can happen in one or two games. We do have a habit of taking results against the 'considered' bigger teams and slip up occasionally against smaller teams. So even if we smash both Arsenal and West Ham I will still try and be calm and look at the bigger picture that while that may happen we'll probably still end up around midtable. Likewise if we lose to Arsenal and West Ham I will be bitterly disappointed and likely keep away from this site but still think we'll end up midtable. Obviously 5 minutes before the game I will be saying to my family this is a must win game and will be jumping for joy or about to kill somebody during the 90 minutes and for the rest of the night depending on the result but that's in the heat of the moment. I just look over a period and assess, I dont know why I do that and I know some people do that and some people dont, I've had many discussions about that on here.... I really hope we backlash against Arsenal to be honest and give them a kicking like we have done recently over the last year or so....we'll see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sulberto21 Posted October 21, 2021 Share Posted October 21, 2021 On 17/10/2021 at 22:48, DCJonah said: It did happen. But its bullshit that it's a reason we stayed up. First of all, it wasn't even half time, so no way to know how the game would have ended. Secondly, we were clearly screwed in the Palace game. So odd you'd cling to it to try and diminish the achievement. And the Arsenal game where they had 2 dubious goals. Sokratis caught the ball and they didn't give us a penalty too. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Griffin Posted October 21, 2021 Share Posted October 21, 2021 3 hours ago, Vive_La_Villa said: I think if you look at our strongest team now and our strongest team then. Only Mings, Konsa, Luiz, Targett and Mcginn remain. I think that answers the question. Only 3 players that started agains us in the 2019 season for West Ham started for Hammers against Everton in the most recent PL game. Both teams have changed significantly since 2019/20 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sne Posted October 21, 2021 Share Posted October 21, 2021 So this year it's West Ham and not Leeds that is the benchmark for who we are comparing every thing to? Just for clarity. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vive_La_Villa Posted October 21, 2021 Share Posted October 21, 2021 8 minutes ago, Peter Griffin said: Only 3 players that started agains us in the 2019 season for West Ham started for Hammers against Everton in the most recent PL game. Both teams have changed significantly since 2019/20 You sure about that. I count 8 if looking at last game of the season. Would be 9 if Cresswall wasn’t out injured. Don’t agree both teams have changed significantly at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Griffin Posted October 21, 2021 Share Posted October 21, 2021 1 minute ago, Vive_La_Villa said: You sure about that. I count 8 if looking at last game of the season. Would be 9 if Cresswall wasn’t out injured. Don’t agree both teams have changed significantly at all. No, not sure about it, just checked and it was the home game not the away game. I had Googled Villa v West Ham and not West Ham v Villa. But it was still in the same season. Interesting if is has changed to 8 players from the game at their place. The game I quoted was in Sept so pre Moyes and the game art the end of the season was with Moyes 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sne Posted October 21, 2021 Share Posted October 21, 2021 Just now, Peter Griffin said: No, if you reads back on the thread the topic was comparing Moyes progress at West Ham to Smith's progress at Villa. I posted a comment to show that there was only 1 point between Villa and Hammers on the day Moyes took over at Hammers and the teams were 17th and 18th in the league. I was showing that Moyes has improved West Ham more than Smith has improved Villa in the same period. That is comparing the two managers and their progress. It is a way of comparing Smith's effectiveness by comparing him to a peer Yup West Ham have done better than us since then on points. And as been mentioned the starting points for these clubs were very different. And I brought up that last season it was Leeds that people brought up and pointed to asking why they were doing better than us. But I'm fine if it's West Ham who's the ones this season. Certainly get that the people who are doubting our progress are not currently using Leeds, Wolves, Arsenal or Sheffield United as the benchmark for comparison from where we were 3 years ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Griffin Posted October 21, 2021 Share Posted October 21, 2021 @Vive_La_Villa I was just looking at the teams and I think the key differentiator between Hammers and Villa over the period is Soucek. He is a rock in the middle of the park and links play really well. Moyes signed him on loan in the Jan window that year and made it permanent for 14m in the summer. That was a bargain of a purchase. I wonder where Deano's Villa would be if we had of bought Soucek instead of Nakamba 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts