Ratings & Reactions: Watford v Villa

[Aston_Villan4]

4 hours ago, KAZZAM said:

Think there needs to be an investigation into our poor preseason. I mean who organised it ? Surely Dean has a big input on it? Watford played 6 preseason games vs our 4 and just randomly checking the Newcastle vs West ham game they played 6 and 7 preseason games. Why did we only play 4? when others played so many more ? I even noticed Liverpool had friendly's on consecutive days for each half of there squad.Where was the planning? it just feels all so casual and not serious enough from Dean and co.

Targett and Cash both looked a million miles of the pace and i can only put that down to not being match fit.And the team in general defo didnt looked 'jelled' at all.

I don't see any need for an investigation. I think it was simply that key players were missing. There really wasn't enough time for them to do a proper preseason. Guys like Cash have no excuse for how poor his play was but others like Traore were injured,  Mings, Grealish, Martinez and Luiz out for international duty. That's 5 of our normal starting 11 that missed nearly all of the preaseason. Then you're dealing with preseason injuries like Targett, Buendia and then Watkins. Plus the Grealish transfer that happened 2 weeks ago and then you have Bailey and Ings who were brought in so late. Half of our preseason games were U23s who will not see first team game time this year. Salernitana was really the first time they were able to play together as a first team and even then it was still without key players. What would you like them to do?

 

 

 

[leemond2008]

We were screaming out for a new midfielder with or without Jack leaving

[sheepyvillian]

1 hour ago, TRO said:

Unless we can ditch this Pusillanimous approach....Europe is pie in the sky.

It was an off day, they happen. I think it's ridiculous to suggest we approach games in that manner. I didn't see that approach against Chelsea or Spurs at the end of last season. We may have lacked the required intensity yesterday and that can't be excused, but to suggest we're a team that lacks determination is nonsense. 

[foreveryoung]

I mentioned in the City thread, if we don't start playing with some pace we ain't getting anywhere near top 8. Our best games last season, like the 7-2 drumming of Liverplop, we played with serious pace, it was exciting and it's what will win us games. 

[VillaChris]

26 minutes ago, Dave-R said:

See now I think different on that.

I believe that, why cant we be one of the clubs like Leicester screwing another City chance for Silverwear. I just would love now how Jack turned his back on us, his team mates, his club to get a foul taste of Karma of losing to Villa in a final. Imagine he and City were put that high in an ivory tower as favourites to win (which they would be) then they go cock it all up against Jack's old club and he and his team mates have to watch Villa lift a piece of Silverware, wouldn't that be poetry.

I want us to and hope we play City in a final because if there was a slim chance we could do one on them no matter how crap the odds, I'd take that final over a final with any other club.

Think I did say after he left us the ultimate would be for us at some point in next 5 years to beat them in FA cup final with Emi saving the crucial penalty from him. Long way still to build the club up to get to that point though.

[TRO]

On 14/08/2021 at 18:37, avfc1982am said:

So TRO was wrong then and Targett just had an off day then...Yeah, I accept that.

I don't care if he had a good season last season....he still has certain attributes missing from a complete full back....he is not blessed with athleticism,and turn of pace, but there may be a good reason, that we don't know about, why he played so badly....lets be honest Cash wasn't much better......latter on I watched Spurs and Tanagana was the epitome of what to expect from a full back.

If Targett just had an off day, fine....we will see.

Players don't have to have a bad game, for fans to see certain things that they ideally would like to see better.

[TRO]

11 hours ago, sheepyvillian said:

It was an off day, they happen. I think it's ridiculous to suggest we approach games in that manner. I didn't see that approach against Chelsea or Spurs at the end of last season. We may have lacked the required intensity yesterday and that can't be excused, but to suggest we're a team that lacks determination is nonsense. 

If it was an off day sheepy, I will be delighted....but we had a few last season too, take your blinkers off.

We need to get some grit in to our play.....yes, I stand by that.

[MaVilla]

22 minutes ago, TRO said:

If it was an off day sheepy, I will be delighted....but we had a few last season too, take your blinkers off.

We need to get some grit in to our play.....yes, I stand by that.

What i dont get TRO, is it was the first game of a new season, all the talking up of our targets and expectations, lots of our players and the manager talking up our desire and will to progress.

Then first game we do that, a complete damp squid of a performance, i actually dont understand, how can you go in to the first game of a new season not hyped up and having a huge desire to hit the ground running.....i dont get it.

If Brentford hadnt beaten Arsenal, maybe it could have been complacency thinking "eh we can beat Watford sleep walking", but Brentford did beat Arsenal, so if that wasnt a wake up call to be at it 100% i dont know what was? (i know it crossed my mind that we need to not be complacent)

I just dont understand the complete lethargy, lack of urgency, lack of effort, yes we could say they "outplayed us", but sorry this is Watford, a newly promoted side, and possibly the worst of the promoted sides, "they outplayed us" just isnt an acceptable excuse.

Credit to Watford for their performance, but once again, we let a team roll us over and tickle our belly like a good little doggie, and not even a good team. (tbh tho.....this is what we did last year versus teams who got at us, we dont like it, once again.....we are too weak and lightweight in the middle)

I could go on forever, but suffice to say, im just shocked we allowed ourselves to be rolled over like that. (although to be brutally honest...im actually not surprised, im more surprised we havent fixed it even though it keeps happening)

Edited August 16, 2021 by MaVilla

[TRO]

44 minutes ago, MaVilla said:

What i dont get TRO, is it was the first game of a new season, all the talking up of our targets and expectations, lots of our players and the manager talking up our desire and will to progress.

Then first game we do that, a complete damp squid of a performance, i actually dont understand, how can you go in to the first game of a new season not hyped up and having a huge desire to hit the ground running.....i dont get it.

If Brentford hadnt beaten Arsenal, maybe it could have been complacency thinking "eh we can beat Watford sleep walking", but Brentford did beat Arsenal, so if that wasnt a wake up call to be at it 100% i dont know what was? (i know it crossed my mind that we need to not be complacent)

I just dont understand the complete lethargy, lack of urgency, lack of effort, yes we could say they "outplayed us", but sorry this is Watford, a newly promoted side, and possibly the worst of the promoted sides, "they outplayed us" just isnt an acceptable excuse.

Credit to Watford for their performance, but once again, we let a team roll us over and tickle our belly like a good little doggie, and not even a good team. (tbh tho.....this is what we did last year versus teams who got at us, we dont like it, once again.....we are too weak and lightweight in the middle)

I could go on forever, but suffice to say, im just shocked we allowed ourselves to be rolled over like that. (although to be brutally honest...im actually not surprised, im more surprised we havent fixed it even though it keeps happening)

I endorse all of that.

There is quite a few things, I don't understand, and you touched on some of them.

Dan Bardell mention in his podcast, That Dean was shouting at Cash to get forward.....How can he get forward when he hasn't got his opposite number nailed, does he just abandon an already flaky position on the field.....its madness.

as a team we are obsessed with attacking....when we only have 2/3 players in the team with a nose to defend....its a total Imbalance.

This notion of Europe is a joke, on this showing....The only hope I am clinging to, is that it was a one off, but I have my doubts.

You are right the preparation for a new season, with hopes of Europe was a farce.....I don't know where the blame for that lies, but we may find out in due course.

It certainly needs a significant turn around in approach, just to compete, never mind win.

Edited August 16, 2021 by TRO

[villalad21]

 

@TRO

The "grit" you are highlighting is not being identified by the club.

It doesn't look like they value it.

When things get hard that grit to claw yourself back into the game doesn't seem to be there. As a team we're too nice. It has happened way too many times that once we go a goal down our team feels sorry for themselves and collapse.

Watching West Ham yesterday was something else. They had a difficult start no doubt but what impresses me is they always stay in games and slowly build their way back into it. As a result of staying in games they always give themselves a chance to claw their way back.

Tons of characters in that team. Hopefully we can get there one day too, but we badly need stronger characters. Especially in midfield.

[TheStagMan]

*edit* can't be bothered.

 

The hysteria is strong in here. I'm out.

Edited August 16, 2021 by TheStagMan

[barry'sboots]

On 14/08/2021 at 17:03, Troglodyte said:

I'm sure we'll never start with that midfield again. That's one of the few positives (along with Bailey) that came out of that game.

It was a terrible performance but we'll be good once the attacking players click, especially when we can factor Watkins back into that. Buendía looked too lightweight at times but once he knows where the runners are, I think he'll make things happen. Today, he needed a little more time and got caught in possession too often as a result, considering he doesn't have the strength to hold it up when crowded out.

El Ghazi isn't good enough and if we can get a decent fee for him then I'll be glad to see him go. I'll always be thankful for his playoff goal and he seems a decent lad, but doesn't offer enough. Always looking to shoot.

Main problem was at full back - both were abysmal today. Hopefully they can come back from that but will also need better support from the wingers. They're good players. Young did a far better job than Targett today though. I'm hoping we keep Guilbert for extra challenge/cover.

We also need to be stronger in central midfield but this was better when we had Ramsey on. We need a solid three in the middle. Fingers crossed Sanson can get fit and find his way into the team, and that Dougie won't be too shattered from this summer.

I think you are spot on.  BUT none of these things should have come as a surprise to anybody, least of all Smith?  

That midfield always looked underweight against a physical Watford side (they are always big, strong and athletic).  We all knew we were probably undercooked offensively given: (1) the lack of pre-season games; (2) the number of injuries/players missing; (3) the  loss of Jack and the circus around this; and this should have dictated a pragmatic solid formation initially with a view to staying tight and possibly looking to go on the offensive a bit more in the last quarter with Bailey providing impetus.  We should have gone in with 3 midfielders and Buendia on the right wing and I would have probably started JPB on the left with Ash possibly at left back, given his pre-season has been better than Targett's.  Nuno showed yesterday the value of organisation, even when you are playing a superior side - you have to set your side up right and I'm just not sure Smith has ever shown that he can do this when he doesn't have Jack/has to come up with a different way of playing.  I am particularly worried now as there is no obvious eleven/formation and he is going to have to find plan B, C & D and he has never done that in the past. 

El Ghazi is Hourihane on the wing.  Great shot, albeit becoming very predictable, but offers nothing else.  If we can get anything above £10m for him we should bite Roma's hand off and re-invest in a genuine option (Damsgaard or Correa look suitable but I haven't seen enough to judge) to compete with Bailey.  AEG, imho, is bad enough on the left wing BUT has never done anything when played off the right - Smith should know this as much as we all do!  JPB would have been a better option on the evidence of pre-season!  If we sell AEG and get another left winger in, I would let JPB go out on loan and get 30+ starts in the championship.  He would only benefit from those games.

I'm not sure where Targett has been in pre-season and why he was selected over Young for this game, given his lack of preparation and Young having looked good in pre-season.  I completely agree with keeping Freddie around as well.  I would always ideally want 8 defenders for four positions.

I would love us to get in a strong DCM and ideally JWP - a proper leader.  A DCM with cover from Nakamba and two from four of SJM, JWP, Sanson and Luiz would be quality for a 4-3-3.  This would also allow Ramsey to go out and get 30+ games in the Championship. 

A lot to do in the next couple of weeks.  I know it is early days but it is frustrating to be dropping valuable points this early.  I believe that, set up right, we could have at least come away with a point from this game.  

 

[sheepyvillian]

3 hours ago, TRO said:

If it was an off day sheepy, I will be delighted....but we had a few last season too, take your blinkers off.

We need to get some grit in to our play.....yes, I stand by that.

Needing some grit to our play isnt the same as approaching games without passion or desire. I accepted we played terrible, but let's, keep things in perspective. It's almost like you're continually looking to make mountains out of mole hills. 

Edited August 16, 2021 by sheepyvillian

[barry'sboots]

37 minutes ago, villalad21 said:

 

@TRO

The "grit" you are highlighting is not being identified by the club.

It doesn't look like they value it.

When things get hard that grit to claw yourself back into the game doesn't seem to be there. As a team we're too nice. It has happened way too many times that once we go a goal down our team feels sorry for themselves and collapse.

Watching West Ham yesterday was something else. They had a difficult start no doubt but what impresses me is they always stay in games and slowly build their way back into it. As a result of staying in games they always give themselves a chance to claw their way back.

Tons of characters in that team. Hopefully we can get there one day too, but we badly need stronger characters. Especially in midfield.

I think you only need to take one look at Coufal and Soucek to know that they will fight tooth and nail for everything they can get.  I know its stereotyping, but that Eastern European mentality and hardness is useful in your more defensive/workmanlike areas, especially when you have a fight on your hands/are trying to come from behind.  

[villalad21]

2 minutes ago, barry'sboots said:

I think you only need to take one look at Coufal and Soucek to know that they will fight tooth and nail for everything they can get.  I know its stereotyping, but that Eastern European mentality and hardness is useful in your more defensive/workmanlike areas, especially when you have a fight on your hands/are trying to come from behind.  

It was prevalent 100 years ago and it still is prevalent today.

Certain things will just never lose it's importance despite how much some people think to themselves the game has "moved on"

[barry'sboots]

2 hours ago, TRO said:

I endorse all of that.

There is quite a few things, I don't understand, and you touched on some of them.

Dan Bardell mention in his podcast, That Dean was shouting at Cash to get forward.....How can he get forward when he hasn't got his opposite number nailed, does he just abandon an already flaky position on the field.....its madness.

as a team we are obsessed with attacking....when we only have 2/3 players in the team with a nose to defend....its a total Imbalance.

This notion of Europe is a joke, on this showing....The only hope I am clinging to, is that it was a one off, but I have my doubts.

You are right the preparation for a new season, with hopes of Europe was a farce.....I don't know where the blame for that lies, but we may find out in due course.

It certainly needs a significant turn around in approach, just to compete, never mind win.

I think "attack, attack, attack" is okay IF you know your attack is functioning well.  Our is newly thrown together and missing vital cogs.  We should always have approached this game in a pragmatic way and looked to earn the right to compete, as you say, before looking to go on the offensive.  We showed massive naivety imho and this can only lie with Deano I'm afraid - he picks the team and sets the tone.

[barry'sboots]

9 minutes ago, sheepyvillian said:

Needing some grit to our play isnt the same as approaching games without passion or desire. I accepted we played terrible, but let's, keep things in perspective. It's almost like you've continually looking to make mountains out of mole hills. 

And many on here are continually looking to make mole hills out of mountains!

That was a shocking display - particularly first half - and we find ourselves coming from behind already.  We went into that game undercooked/underprepared and not set up properly, imho.  I believe that, had we been, we would have secured at least a point and been off to a decent start. 

Momentum/confidence can play a significant part in football and we don't have it.  Similar struggles against Newcastle and the very positive Brentford at their new ground (another of our historic bogey teams I believe) followed by three tough fixtures against Chelski, Everton and Man U could see us firmly in the bottom half and playing catch up.

I get TRO's point about grit.  My interpretation of this is that he wants to see a strong (physique and character) leader in the centre of the park and I don't disagree with this.  This is even more important if you are looking to play Buendia as a "10" which I certainly wouldn't have done in this first game against a side that is always looking to physically assert themselves. 

[PeterSw]

Hopefully we see a reaction at the weekend v Newcastle.

I do wonder if there was a lack of defensive preparation that would have been done by JT? Hopefully they can get his replacement in quickly. 

Think we need to start with the formation (and line-up) we finished with. Looked a different animal. Maybe bring Luiz in for Nakamba if he is available. 

Good to see the management team recognise the issues and make changes early. Also good to now have the depth to be able to do this! Bench options look very good and have Watkins to come back.

Excited to see if Ramsey can perform like that on a consistent basis this season, could be an breakout season.

As for the doomsday merchants on here - give your heads a wobble and please get behind the team at Villa Park and don't boo them every chance you get.

[TRO]

1 hour ago, villalad21 said:

 

@TRO

The "grit" you are highlighting is not being identified by the club.

It doesn't look like they value it.

When things get hard that grit to claw yourself back into the game doesn't seem to be there. As a team we're too nice. It has happened way too many times that once we go a goal down our team feels sorry for themselves and collapse.

Watching West Ham yesterday was something else. They had a difficult start no doubt but what impresses me is they always stay in games and slowly build their way back into it. As a result of staying in games they always give themselves a chance to claw their way back.

Tons of characters in that team. Hopefully we can get there one day too, but we badly need stronger characters. Especially in midfield.

Precisely....it allegedly can't be seen.

....its going to be a very up and down season in my view.

[TRO]

23 minutes ago, barry'sboots said:

I think you only need to take one look at Coufal and Soucek to know that they will fight tooth and nail for everything they can get.  I know its stereotyping, but that Eastern European mentality and hardness is useful in your more defensive/workmanlike areas, especially when you have a fight on your hands/are trying to come from behind.  

I only see Mings and Konsa having any real defensive Nous.