Move Over Liverpool

[OutByEaster?]

Gerrard knows deep down what every Liverpool fan knows, he'll never win the title in a Liverpool shirt. The question is will he go to Chelsea to win it before he retires.

It's a very similar situation.

[Kee]

Not really. I mean Gerrard has already achieved everything possible in club football bar the league title. He has had regular finishes of 3rd and even 2nd in a Liverpool shirt. Liverpool have shown they are capable of success at the highest level and are always there or therabouts in the title race, a couple of new faces (starting with Barry) and they may well be able to put in a concrete title challenge.

Villa are a team on the up i don't deny, they are a very good team and i like them alot, i admire MON, but they are a Uefa Cup team at very best. And they are yet to qualify for that. If Barry wants to move forward in his career, win things and keep his place in the national side, he joins Liverpool. If not, he stays with Villa. I mean no disrespect but it really is that simple.

So you see, it really isn't a similar situation. Spurs spent £45 million last season and still didn't manage to breach the top four. Villa require a replacement for Mellberg, which is easier said than done and improvements in other area's if they are even to sustain their league finish from this season. As other teams around you, such as Spurs, Blackburn, Everton, Portsmouth, City and Newcastle will all strengthen.

Surely now you can see Barrys predicament. He can stay with a team, undoubtedly that have improved, a team he has remained loyal to his entire career, but ultimately will be fighting for an automatic Uefa Cup spot next season. But with Liverpool there is just so much more to gain, an International place, Champions League football, fighting for the top honours and playing alongside world class players.

As i say i mean no disrespect, and i wish Villa and MON all the luck in the world next season, you are my second team, Ashley Young and Barry are players i've admired for a long long time now and the prospect of seeing one of them in a Liverpool shirt interests me.

[OutByEaster?]

Not really. I mean Gerrard has already achieved everything possible in club football bar the league title. He has had regular finishes of 3rd and even 2nd in a Liverpool shirt. Liverpool have shown they are capable of success at the highest level and are always there or therabouts in the title race, a couple of new faces (starting with Barry) and they may well be able to put in a concrete title challenge.

Villa are a team on the up i don't deny, they are a very good team and i like them alot, i admire MON, but they are a Uefa Cup team at very best. And they are yet to qualify for that. If Barry wants to move forward in his career, win things and keep his place in the national side, he joins Liverpool. If not, he stays with Villa. I mean no disrespect but it really is that simple.

I'd agree, but Gerrard wants to win the title, that much he's made clear, and exactly the same things apply. I think we're as likely to qualify for the Champions league as Liverpool are to win the title in the next few years. (Both I think are fairly unlikely in the careers of these two players.)

I'm not sure moving to Liverpool will necessarily help Barry with his international place either, Villa sometimes adjust to Barry, Barry would need to adjust for Liverpool, and I think ultimately his versatility could prove counter productive for his England chances if he joined you.

Liverpool are a good side, but you're as near to Spurs, Villa and Everton as you are to United, Chelsea and Arsenal. They know it, we know it, but you haven't realised yet.

[Kee]

The problem with being a side outside of the top four is that you are susceptible to becoming a selling club. Teams don't establish themselves as top four sides in one season unless they are backed by Abramovich. So in those 3 or 4 seasons it takes to make that big push for the top four, similar to what Everton have done, the best players soon realise that they are better than the standard of Football to which they are playing alongside.

In the next season or two. Evertons best players that are capable of playing at top four sides. Players like Lescott and Arteta, they will think "sod this" i've got Liverpool, Chelsea, United and Arsenal all offering me double my money on wages, and i'll be playing with much better players, at bigger clubs where i'll be travelling all over Europe to places like the Nou Camp and the San Siro every season, and fighting for the big honours at the top of the league and i'll get more of a look in with the national team, oooo i'll have a bit of that !".

When Everton managed to break into the top four, that was their big chance, they needed to invest and invest considerably, and had they done that, they may still be there now, or they would be a damn sight nearer thats for sure. But they didn't and they are now in the Uefa Cup once more, building back up to that second go. Sadly, it is all about money, and when you get your chance as a team you have to take it, Everton didn't, Liverpool spent more and the gap between the top four and the rest widened.

The gap between the top four and the rest now is almost as big as the gap between the Championship standard and the Premiership standard, don't let individual results fool you, the league table doesn't lie. And the fact is Liverpool have grown ever closer to the top in the past 3 seasons. The introduction of Torres and the reinvigorated Gerrard will only increase their chances next year, throw Barry and a couple of other top notch signings into the mix and they are as good on paper as any of the other top four teams.

I hate the monopoly of the big four, and my teams part of it for christ sake. It makes the league so predictable and sadly it is going to take something rather dramatic for any one team to bridge that gap. It would take Liverpool or Arsenal to sell a big game player like a Torres/Gerrard or a Fabregas/Hleb and a couple of dodgy replacements, and a Villa, Pompey, Everton or Blackburn to spend big and get a whole lot of luck to even come close to bridging it.

As for Barry's versatility and its use at Liverpool i don't think that will be a problem. They are losing Lucas and Mascherano to the Olympics for the first month of the season and Alonso is being sold to Juventus. So he will be vital in central midfield. His versatility will only come into use if there are injuries on the left side, and with the depth that Liverpool have over there i don't think it will be a problem.

[OutByEaster?]

The obvious and converse argument to that is that a team like Spurs or Villa or Everton will only have to get it right once. We can be lucky once, Liverpool need to be lucky every year, one bad season, injuries, poor form, boardroom chaos, whatever it may be, if Liverpool miss out once it'll set you back you years.

Players love the Champions league, if you finish fifth even once, Torres will be back to Spain before you can say adios amigo. There would be a stampede of players out of Anfield.

I'm surprised you don't see your own vulnerability, the league this year has created monkeys for a few backs. There were so many bad teams last season that teams near the top harvested big points totals.

For us that meant 60 points for the first time in years and the (false) idea that we're on the verge of Champions league qualification. For you it meant being closer to the top two than you've been for a while and the (false) idea that you've got a genuine title chance.

I maintain that for Barry, Villa and Liverpool, you might well be reading Gerrard, Liverpool and Chelsea in the next couple of years.

[JohnCresswell]

More disgusting behaviour from Liverpool.

And another reason to hate Gerrard. Not only is he cheating diver, he also taps up players.

If I was a Liverpool I'd be very, very embarrassed and disapointed that they have turned to this.

[Juju]

I have to admit, to be honest, I don't even think this is about Barry anymore. This is about alpha males.

This is about personalities. This is mental chess. This is Martin O Neill, at his self confident best, playing, nay, orchestrating a very public campaign or game that he didn't actually want to play, and that he's being asked to play a year or so too early.

I truely believe the man is driven, and there isn't, contrary to some peoples belief, a single word that falls out of his mouth that hasnt been planned, thought through, and rehearsed and refined to achieve maximum impact.

The "angry" initial response to the Liverpool Echo article, was very measureed in between the lines. IT was firmly about establishing credentials, and "neg'ing" who appear to be the bigger, wealthier and more successful club. Aluding publically to how they "choose to go about their business", and building up the importance of Barry way beyond what most Villa fans really think about his status, was O'Neill simply entering combat for round one. The "mish mash un named players" designed to sugges that firstly anyone Liverpool want to sell isn't good enough for us, and yet retaining the moral high ground of not naming them, snet a message topool of "how to do business".

The calulated press campaign, with Stevie G appearing to have to have his say and add weight to the fading Liverpool campaign, is simply the best response Liverpool can offer right now publically. Lets face it, just about every Villa emplyee, including Edna the tea lady, has been published saying how Barry ought to stay where he is. Even yesterdays Metro, a london daily free paper I picked up on my train in to work from a southern suburb, had a half page article on Reo Coker. Actually, it had a picture of reo Coker, and it was the mans words ok, but frankly it was half a page of how "big things are happening at the Villa" and what a generally "Wonderfull manager"MON is. Even hapless Scott Carson, a Liverpool emplyee, has been orchestrated into this PR war of words.

Every England fringe player like Young, Davies, Agbongalor have all had their public says about a team mates career. And theres the rub - do you think a single one would be so free and available, without MON's prior consent. - Ok he treats the players like adults, but look how quickly Berger felt the door slam on his arse! Ok - he was on his way out shortly, but he was pushed - at a possible cost of a few weeks wages perhaps, to set an example and precedent.

I don't actulaly even think that MON would keep Barry for £1, if he really thought his head had been turned by the Liverpool offer. OK, Barry's played excellently for a generally dismal England side, but he isn't in my view indespensible by any means. Two years ago if I'd suggested he was a £15m player, and £20m to Liverpool who seem horny for him like a Victorian at an uncovered table leg - you'd have laughed at me!

If O Neill senses Barrys head has been turned, then all the talk about "important player" and "do I want to lose him" will be for nought. Well, it might add £5m to the sale price, and the sale will be on Villa's terms, not Liverpools. but given this is a man who signed Marlon Harewood, O Neill isnt about signing "the cult of celebrity". We'll end up like Leicester, only better. We will sign workhorses, not fancy dans. Incomming players will be more skillful and applied workhorses,but they will still need to be tough and give 100%. Prepared to sit out, be patient, but leap for opportunities - be kept hungry. This is actually why I dont think we will sign SWP. He doesn't appear to be hungry enough - too much too young - spoiled by his parental associations. Aready toorich. Sidwell I can see happening.

I think Liverpool have been mildly disrespectful in their approach,but no more than any other large club who feel they can poach, tap up or otherwise attract a player. But that only made it personal with O Neill.

This transfer saga has been like a military campaign. Liverpool open the battle. MON negates them, belittles them. Rafa replies - incoherently and already appearing defensive whilst not trying to appear ruffled. Mon replies back - andit's clear Rafa has misunderstood what MON was saying. The charm offensive begins, the sides wheel out the respective team mates to chip in - snd more Villa players have had an opinion than pool players. The suggestion of going after Downing is mooted - but not for long.

Now the best hand pool can play is Stevie G pleading. This is just now a bidding war, and this is forcing the stakes higher - financially. If it's got to this - Rafa can't be overly confident. He appears to have played his hand worse. If he gets an arguably expendable Barry,it wont be cheap - and Pool dont have the cash to be playing these transfer poker games badly.

Again, I reiterate, it could have been Young, or Agbonglahor, or even Carew - the games the same, its prizing as much cash for expendable assets, and vieing for intelectual superiority to get there.

[PB]

Excelent posts there from Juju and Bicks if I may so so.

Liverpool are in an odd position on this arent they? Can they afford to lose such a public transfer battle? As bicks says, can they afford to win? if Barry goes, and Juju is right, his importance to Villa is being a little overstated, then Villa have to make sure that Liverpool pay a price they cannot afford.

Its really fascinating to watch, and some nice insights there fellas

[Juju]

We've all seen dismal Barry performances, as he huff and puffs his fat lil body over the pitch, hoofing hopeful balls forwars to opponent central defenders allafternoon. You don't seem to see those off days from the very best players like, I hate to say it, Gerrard. There has always been a minority of fans abusing Barrys performances at games. Lets also face it - our transfer policy since O Neill and Lerner - I can't see Ellis and O dreary ever having managed to get 3m for Moore, 5M for Cahill and 4M for Davis.

O Neill's got no issues in letting anyone go if the sacrifice improves the squad. But only if thay player wants to go. I don't even think myself Barry is that driven to go himself. I think any signing on fee could be negotiated to outweigh any loss of bonus, so dont read too much into Barry not having actively "asked" for a transfer.

Ok its a great offer -wage doubling and an opportunity to play against the best in the Champions league, but if he'd been really set up to go, and the pool offer was the genuine starters gun for the deal, he's be in a red shirt by now. He may still end up there in a red shirt. But at £10m more than pool can really afford, or in context, 1/3 of the cost the new stadium they need to generate revenue but can't afford either! And lets face it, a good england run puts £1m on Barrys price every time he plays! and £2m if he captains!

[Corcaigh]

There is an inevitability that Barry will have the effect that Carricks leaving of Spurs. Sure they had Berbatov, but that glaring hole in midfield has never been filled, if they had kept Carrick they might have got that 4th spot.

[bickster]

Excelent posts there from Juju and Bicks if I may so so.

Why thank-you, coming from you Mr Bosworth that is indeed a compliment. I agree a fascinating battle and one I'm confidant, whatever the outcome, it will be a positive one for Villa.

[TRO]

Brentie wrote .....If anyone is going to break into the top 4 this year, it won’t be you, it will be a side who spends a shitload of money (Spurs most likely). You don’t seem able to keep your best players, let alone attract top class European talent.

Despite my acceptance of the way Martin O'Neill builds his squad...... that in my opinion is a truism.

If you are not a buying club, by definition you will end up as a selling club.

I do not confess to have any idea whatsoever, what Martin O'Neill's intentions are in terms of both quantity or quality this summer and i don't think anyone else does either.

I think the code breakers during the war would have thrown the towel in.

[ROFL_Lundgren]

Don't see Barry as an option for Liverpool, if Alonso leaves(a class player), he should be replaced by a class player, of which Barry is most certainly not, he is good for Villa, and should stay there, and £15million is an outrage for a player untried in Champions League football.

[rjw63]

Don't see Barry as an option for Liverpool, if Alonso leaves(a class player), he should be replaced by a class player, of which Barry is most certainly not, he is good for Villa, and should stay there, and £15million is an outrage for a player untried in Champions League football.

I can hear the rustle of a shellsuit...........

[ROFL_Lundgren]

Hardly, when I come from Northern Ireland

[NurembergVillan]

Hardly, when I come from Northern Ireland

So you're even poorer than we first suspected then? :shock:

[Tazzy]

Brentie wrote .....If anyone is going to break into the top 4 this year, it won’t be you, it will be a side who spends a shitload of money (Spurs most likely). You don’t seem able to keep your best players, let alone attract top class European talent.

i agree with this!

earlier today, my gloryhuntng mate phoned me up to say that villa are now in the $h!t

teams around us, tottenham, man city and everton are all buying top world class players, and we are giving in to bully bully tactics and selling our best players!

and hes right, we are getting weaker, by not buying player when we sell players, and selling our best players, so in theory, our squad is getting smaller

[Jon]

Brentie wrote .....If anyone is going to break into the top 4 this year, it won’t be you, it will be a side who spends a shitload of money (Spurs most likely). You don’t seem able to keep your best players, let alone attract top class European talent.

i agree with this!

earlier today, my gloryhuntng mate phoned me up to say that villa are now in the $h!t

teams around us, tottenham, man city and everton are all buying top world class players, and we are giving in to bully bully tactics and selling our best players!

and hes right, we are getting weaker, by not buying player when we sell players, and selling our best players, so in theory, our squad is getting smaller

oh woe is me. I'd jump out of the nearest windown now fella, as there seems no coming back from this.

We're all doomed!

Where's Mr Mainwaring again?

[Juju]

So interesting development today that the "model Professional" who insisted that there "was nothing to think about" as a "contracted player for two more years" until "there was an acceptable offer" has been forced to reveal through his agent that he wants a move.

Fistly accept that an agent, despite us all thinkting they are greedy bastards f**king up the game, would be unlikely to say publically anything unautorised by the player.

This is a desperate hand to play by Liverpool if you accept any of my previous post above had any merit. Liverpool already can't afford players. Benitez has said so. And yet, for Barry to hand in a transfer request (which is what getting an agent to say "my client wants off") he waves good bye to loyalty bonuses that may be worth hundreds of thousands, possibly millions as the top paid club captain long standing professional he is. If they can't really afford him, then they cant really afford to make good with signing on fees on top of the huge fee being demanded. This may have added 15% to the total pool pay to aquire this player. And the player looses his sheen of "Mr Nice guy" which may well reflect of image rights and the way he is percieved by the FA, by personal sponsors, and anyone in the porfessional game.

And to be honest, if Rafa ever read a book about management from someone familiar to O Neill, he's know "once the players lost heart - get rid".

Barrys agents statement today says to me he's already packed his locker, but pool will just have to pay even more than they cant afford.

They may get a good midfielder, but who knows who they miss out on in more critical positions because of it.